Episode 09: Reimagining the university beyond neoliberal economics with Jennie C Stephens

00:00:00: Universities are very powerful organizations.

00:00:04: I think they're more powerful than we sometimes give them credit for what's taught, What is researched?

00:00:11: What has not taught of was not researched?

00:00:14: right?

00:00:15: yeah who Is included?

00:00:17: whose ideas are prioritized?

00:00:19: universities or actually Very

00:00:21: powerful

00:00:22: and have a huge influence on how society thinks about what's going on in the world.

00:00:29: My overall critique after working in academia, up in the environmental climate space for over thirty years is that so many things that universities are doing actually reinforcing status quo and shutting down and actually constraining way we're thinking about future rather than opening it up.

00:00:51: you know not do a lot of research how globally to phase out fossil fuels but also like how to phase out plastics, right?

00:00:59: It's another example.

00:00:59: Or even phased-out the neoliberal economic dominant model!

00:01:04: Right?!

00:01:04: Like we need research on

00:01:06: HOW TO DO THAT!

00:01:07: Yes.

00:01:13: So when one thing changes

00:01:14: and other things change.

00:01:16: The gross national product is not allowed in health of our

00:01:21: children... ...the quality their education will enjoy if they play.

00:01:25: podcast that seeks to expose the economic ideology underpinning our crisis and explore ways we can free ourselves from its chains.

00:01:33: My name is Katie Shields, I'm a recovering mainstream economist and your host.

00:01:37: in Our first season of invisible handcuffs We explored the various problems with the discipline of economics From how it ignores

00:01:44: nature

00:01:45: And care How it over emphasizes The gains from technology and under-emphasises or ignores the colonial legacies on which today's richest economies are built.

00:01:56: And how, given its dominance in academia and policy and our institutions this is contributing to the so called poly crisis In season two.

00:02:05: we're starting to dive into various ways giving all it flaws and give them mounting frustration with economic status quo that economics seems to resist reform.

00:02:15: one of those way is in institution education in the university itself.

00:02:20: I come from Scotland, where my parents' generation just three percent of population went on to further education and now it is over thirty percent.

00:02:29: So given their role not only shaping mindsets for younger generations

00:02:32: but their

00:02:33: role in shaping what gets researched universities have become this powerful force society.

00:02:39: This was when i talked about in this fascinating interview with Jenny C. Stevens, Professor of Climate Justice at the University of Maine-Oath and Ireland an author of The Acclaimed Open Source Book, Climate Justice & the University Shaping a Hopeful Future for All.

00:02:54: After starting In The Natural Sciences she has dedicated her career to what she terms climate justice which has effectively brought her full circle To the university itself And the role it plays in upholding the extractive fossil fuel economy we have today.

00:03:11: We discuss how universities had become increasingly financialized, not necessarily through tuition fees which most countries in Europe including Ireland do not charge but owing to those new classical neoliberal economic policies that say governments must seek balanced budgets.

00:03:26: hence they need a partner with private finance and the education is only worth paying for if it contributes to economic growth, not the public good.

00:03:34: We discuss how many universities even the most elite rely heavily on private donors or corporate partnerships.

00:03:40: but as we also get into its' Not just private funding that's a problem!

00:03:44: We talk particularly about this is playing out right now in Ireland one of the data centre capitals where public research has been funneled towards AI and not towards figuring out how to live without fossil fuels.

00:03:58: I hope You enjoy this episode?

00:03:59: If you do, please share it in your networks.

00:04:02: Like and subscribe at invisible handcuffs dot com.

00:04:04: subscription is free but if he would like to help us on our efforts to turn this into a documentary then Please consider supporting as with a paid subscription.

00:04:12: We're grateful for everyone first reporting us in every way that they can.

00:04:16: With that, please join me welcoming Professor Jenny C Stephens.

00:04:20: So welcome Jenny.

00:04:21: thank you so much for joining us.

00:04:23: Great to be here.

00:04:24: Thanks For Having Me Katie

00:04:26: Thank you I came across your work a couple of years ago.

00:04:37: fossil fuel funding of universities and then reading your book, which we'll get into shortly.

00:04:42: I realize that you're critique of the university goes way beyond just the fossil fuel links so will get in to all of them.

00:04:48: but what i'd like to start with is maybe some definitions.

00:04:51: You are a professor climate justice at Maynuth University.

00:04:55: I hope pronounce it correctly in Dublin or Ireland Maybe for our listeners.

00:04:59: how do define climate justice?

00:05:02: For me climate justice really about big transformative structural and systemic change.

00:05:08: A lot of climate action, mainstream climate action in climate policy is very individualistic and technocratic and isn't about changing our economic system or changing the way that wealth is concentrated and power is concentrated.

00:05:25: so from a climate justice perspective the climate crisis also It's a symptom.

00:05:34: it is one of the worst symptoms, right?

00:05:37: Of an economic system that's extractive and exploitative out-of balance completely with ecological health And human help ultimately as well.

00:05:48: One definition often of climate justice The people who are suffering

00:05:53: most

00:05:54: have contributed least.

00:05:55: We can see in the Himalayas flash floods and horrific situation.

00:06:01: But the people who are suffering and have been killed, aren't ones who're contributing the least.

00:06:09: So that is the injustice?

00:06:11: And climate justice then is acknowledging that and saying we need to change... We need big transformative changes.

00:06:18: societal change for in order to address the climate crisis and smaller incremental reductions in emissions by small amounts, you know is never going to be adequate or sufficient really.

00:06:32: So it's facing that and being honest and genuine about acknowledging that and where we are and that we need big bigger change.

00:06:40: so that's how I define climate justice.

00:06:42: yeah

00:06:44: Thank You!

00:06:44: And some of the things that you'd refer to there sort technocratic and solutions that are proposed right now very much linked also to the kind of economics we have, which is where our connection with what we're trying.

00:06:59: So I'd love to get into it more deeply because you're not just critiquing but pushing for something radically different But maybe also to step back then, so how did you actually come to this topic?

00:07:13: Yeah.

00:07:13: So I've always been interested in the environment from a very humanistic like our human beings you know, persisting in the world.

00:07:23: And then originally I was interested in water because i had read somewhere when I was a teenager that next World War would be fought over water and so I studied at university kind of water aquatic science .And At The Time In The Nineties If You Wanted To Study Environment It Was Physical Science Or Engineering Is Where You Go.

00:07:44: So I Studied Environmental Science & Engineering With A Very Kind Of technical perspective, but in my work I began to realize that it's really the social science and policy-relevant connections that are needed for addressing environmental climate and ecological crises humans face.

00:08:07: So i became shifted from a physical science more technology and engineering focus over Thinking about these bigger transformative social changes and some of the challenges with The way human society has been responding to the climate crisis.

00:08:25: is it's kind of stuck in this science technology focus rather than the Bigger social economic political questions that are actually what's holding us back.

00:08:39: So so, That's how I moved from kind of a science and engineering focus on water to then my PhD project was actually about carbon dioxide in soils, an interaction with the water.

00:08:56: And that's what led me into more studying carbon dioxide as greenhouse gas and how-to...and then kinda manipulation.

00:09:05: so there were some engineering fixes associated.

00:09:10: As I progressed in my thinking and career, and work realized again that it's these technical ways of thinking are actually reinforcing the status quo.

00:09:22: And preventing more transformative changes which is absolutely essential.

00:09:28: You have kind spent your career at the university system.

00:09:32: Can you talk a little bit about where this was?

00:09:35: I'd also be interested to know what extent shifted now, or maybe we're seeing even a shift back.

00:09:41: because yeah as you mentioned there was time where wasn't any social science at all looking at climate.

00:09:46: Now that is little bit...

00:09:47: Yeah so the universities are very powerful organizations.

00:09:52: I think they're more powerful than sometimes give them credit for what's taught What has not taught?

00:10:05: Yeah, who is included?

00:10:06: whose ideas are prioritized there?

00:10:09: you know universities or actually very powerful.

00:10:13: And and have a huge influence on how society thinks about what's going in the world.

00:10:20: my overall critique after working in academia in environmental climate space for over thirty years Is that so many things at the universities are doing or actually reinforcing this status quo and shutting down an actually constraining.

00:10:39: The way we're thinking about future rather than opening it up.

00:10:44: so there's a kind of fundamental problem, I guess with what's been happening in higher education institutions.

00:10:52: And so obviously throughout that time as i mentioned when I started at the university of the nineties there was a new hot thing to study environment right?

00:11:04: increase in environmental science and some new programs.

00:11:07: And this is in the United States, I'm talking about.

00:11:09: so i'm irish...i was born in ireland but my family moved to the united states when i was eight years old.

00:11:14: So then i kind of grew up in the united States and went did most of my academic work In the united state until i moved back to irelands a few years ago..so in the united states at least there you know There was quite a lot of environmental learning and research and attention in universities.

00:11:32: But What became evident to me as someone trying to get more toward that transformative?

00:11:39: Like why are things continuing to get worse and worse, And Why Are We Unable To Make Things Make Progress On Kind Of Climate Justice.

00:11:47: It Became Evident That The Universities Are Quite Constraint In What They Are Teaching And What They're Doing Research on.

00:11:55: Specifically in the climate and energy space of United States so much research was actually funded directly or indirectly influenced by the fossil fuel industry which didn't want us to do research on how to phase out fossil fuels.

00:12:11: So, How To Phase Out Fossil Fields is like number one question society should be you would think.

00:12:18: given all of climate science and we know about bad things are getting in our every year it's accelerating more frequent intense climate suffering yeah of all kinds.

00:12:29: still this now phasing out fossil fuels is the thing that if we had climate justice as our focus collectively, one of the huge things universities should be focusing on and they are not.

00:12:46: And so I got very curious about why?

00:12:49: That's where you start to look at the funding—the flows.

00:12:54: a challenging place in many countries right now, where I guess the power of higher education and the cost of higher-education are linked so that... In many places, the constraints are even greater now than ever.

00:13:22: Yeah.

00:13:26: What there's money support for?

00:13:31: Yeah, maybe we can talk a little bit more because that really stood out to me.

00:13:35: It tied a lot with where I had landed in my thinking—I don't know if you've seen any of the work that I'd done but I was putting together our systems diagram essentially of how kind of the neoliberalisation of economics has fed into the neo-liberalisation and financialization of universities?

00:13:53: And your experience –and i guess in the United States– is the model.

00:13:58: then.

00:13:58: other countries have increasingly gone for or had to go for through this kind of combined shift towards neoliberal economic policies.

00:14:07: on the one hand, reducing you know going for sort balance budgets.

00:14:12: Reducing deficit spending getting that smaller state so moving shifting more into the private sector but also there's kind of need for like growth and productivity shifting more people in university But at the same time I guess influencing even you know, what universities are for.

00:14:30: Shifting is away from maybe what universities used to be for.

00:14:33: You know?

00:14:33: Maybe we can talk a little bit more then about kind of the various ways this financialization then impacts... What universities are able to do in terms of climate

00:14:46: justice?".

00:14:47: Yeah so many of us have a vision that higher education research for society to improve people's lives.

00:15:00: But what we find when you're working in universities, and as I mentioned a lot of my experience up to the point where i wrote that book was in United States higher education system which... And I was at various different institutions from Harvard one big private very wealthy well endowed university The State University at the University of Vermont, which is publicly funded and to a small private Clark university.

00:15:31: Which is in Worcester outside Boston And Northeastern University as another one of the universities I was before I moved back to Ireland.

00:15:40: These universities all like again throughout those thirty plus years that iIwas in academia In United States.

00:15:48: We're really shifting, I think increasingly away from that public good mission.

00:15:53: And by being constrained financially every decision almost is about the money right?

00:16:00: What you can get research funding for determines what people do research on and again even in places like Harvard but have obviously a lot of resources.

00:16:14: they are soliciting additional support all the time from wealthy donors.

00:16:22: And they have a big influence then, the donors and then this... The universities on what the agenda for research is?

00:16:30: So some specific examples I already mentioned like fossil fuel phase out should be the thing that you'd think but instead of climate energy research even at Harvard carbon capture and storage or geoengineering.

00:16:48: So Harvard has had the largest, or still has the largest geo-engineering research program which is very technology oriented kind of dominate... Has a whole way thinking that we can use technology to reduce the risks as climate crisis by dominating our systems rather than changing organized, right?

00:17:16: So I think that this financialization really has and the economic realities of kind of this shift toward private sector.

00:17:26: And...and private contributions to fund the research in the teaching.

00:17:37: You know, the debt that so many students acquire going to university especially in United States and obviously other places.

00:17:44: But it's quite extreme you know?

00:17:47: It costs sixty-to-eighty thousand a year In The United States.

00:17:54: So we don't... Many households cannot afford That!

00:17:59: And then students are also constrained about what jobs they can get.

00:18:03: when I want to make money so that one study economics and finance in their goal is to make many two pay off the loans answer that just diverts people from.

00:18:13: Being able to contribute society in on issues and ways that day that many would like too because of this cycle of cost financialization and, And the economics of higher education.

00:18:30: Yeah, and talking to the economics right?

00:18:32: So we see that as well not just in the technical focus on universities but also the economics being done sort of neoliberal climate economics, which shows that technical fixes matter more or we can just need to price carbon.

00:18:48: And I was actually listening to a Climate Scientist yesterday talking about the IPCC scenarios for example, which do show there are certain scenarios in their that show that we need lots and lots of this carbon capture.

00:19:00: but that's partly because the models that use these complex integrated assessment models correct me if I'm wrong in any of this.

00:19:08: My take on it is that these integrated assessment models, they're not a single one there and would look at anything like something more like a steady state or D growth scenario?

00:19:18: They all require lots of economic growth.

00:19:20: We assume we need the economic growth to actually clean up.

00:19:23: therefore you have it in the economic model.

00:19:27: so what do?

00:19:32: and the technical part.

00:19:37: But I think...I'd like to come back as well, so what you were saying on student fees side of cost because we're seeing this in Europe or countries that don't have high-student fees.

00:19:47: they are still the pressures on cost of living.

00:19:48: there's still a pressure to get a job.

00:19:56: about your interaction with economics.

00:19:57: This podcast is in particular looking at the inflows of economics, I know you had mentioned it before that you were up in Vermont which was known also for its ecological economics.

00:20:05: we have Clive Spash on a few episodes ago who's an ecological economist.

00:20:10: what are your interactions been like?

00:20:12: You're fairly critical specifically about neoliberal economics and how it's influencing universities generally, but in particular climate justice.

00:20:22: Yeah can you talk at all to your experiences there?

00:20:26: You mentioned... And I think this is one of the most kind of frustrating parts for me about many of my economics colleagues that i've worked with over the years who do very good work But they find a problem right you know, very narrow to try and say this is the solution of it.

00:20:47: And economics presented as a science public policy by many in the United States at least part of the fundamental problem because when you look at something in a very narrow way, here's a problem.

00:21:02: How do we fix it?

00:21:04: without looking at the system or the structures?

00:21:06: Or the ecological limits to the systems?

00:21:09: and that is a fundamental constraint of mainstream neoliberal economics where growth as mentioned is assumed forever but with out recognition of constrained limited resources on and the impossibility of continued growth.

00:21:31: So this is where colleagues in ecological economics have called it like a form of deception, right?

00:21:38: Teaching students that we can continue with this simplistic narrow growth market-based solutions oriented approach and get at the root of any of their crises, not just the climate crisis.

00:21:54: The housing crisis or food insecurity are growing economic inequities.

00:22:00: there is no simple Solution for any of the crises that we're facing.

00:22:05: and yeah, The former president of Ireland Michael D Higgins has even written about or said That it's you know a deprivation of basic student rights by teaching this very narrow Blinkered and distorted education when we teach students like mainstream economics.

00:22:21: So so you know?

00:22:25: economics departments and universities, everyone engaging with economics to acknowledge there are lots of alternative ways that is much more aligned with reality.

00:22:38: Of what humanity's facing And That Is The Ecological Economics Feminist Economics Solidarity Economy Donut Economics.

00:22:49: Lots As You And Many All Your Listeners Will Know There So Much diversity of economic thought and ways of thinking about economic theory in economic systems.

00:22:59: And we really are doing ourselves, our students and the future generations a big disservice by narrowly reinforcing only this current model as dominant one.

00:23:12: so my own interactions with economists, you know I was in a policy school at Northeastern where many economics colleagues and very much this idea that economics can solve.

00:23:25: Policy problems

00:23:27: yeah.

00:23:28: And it was also at the University of Vermont to wear Very interestingly You know The Economics Department versus these scholars and researchers and those teaching on ecological economics were.

00:23:42: they were indifferent parts of the university and they wouldn't actually interact.

00:23:46: I mean, it tried... They'd have debates in things.

00:23:48: but yeah i remember being shocked when i learned that students majoring in economics if they took an ecological economics class-I think at the time at least-it wouldn't count for their major because they said that's not economics you know.

00:24:01: so this is the kind of narrow thinking that that is reinforced I guess in the structures within people who are trained in economics or many, our quite strongly oriented toward the benefits of what that training brings.

00:24:23: And you know I have a lot interactions with colleagues and it's becoming at least to me more obvious we need alternative ways of thinking and economic models.

00:24:40: And teaching, obviously is a big part of it.

00:24:43: I think that's where moving to Ireland i've been able to have more of those kind of broader conversations.

00:24:51: Obviously there are still very you know in the economics departments here focused neoliberal economic dominance but There's also a lot of acknowledgement about bigger transformative change and how these systems aren't working for most people around the world.

00:25:11: Being able to have those different kinds of conversations, acknowledging their constraints I think is really important.

00:25:19: And when that shut down which was happening in universities more where people are being intimidated or silenced on the in-the-narrow, right?

00:25:30: This is not good.

00:25:32: And this really gets to some of their bigger risks of what some colleagues are now calling academic capture or corporate capture of higher education where... The financialization and money and catering to mainstream those with power wealth is actually constraining what is taught and researched at our universities.

00:25:55: I think that's problematic on a deep level

00:25:59: Yeah, and I think...I'd also like to pick up as well because you mentioned the feminist angle.

00:26:06: But maybe just before we come back to that- I want to just pick up on the funding though as well Because we do see it in Europe even if its not sort of directly.

00:26:15: There is obviously corporate funding in universities but there's pressure at government level in public funding.

00:26:24: I've actually been trying to get an interview, haven't managed too with the head of UK's Economic and Social Research Council who wrote on a blog last year essentially that he doesn't want

00:26:32: U.K.,

00:26:32: to be funding any more kind research, right?

00:26:36: Because kind of with the argument that the Labour government has a pro-growth agenda and he sees it as his role to do that.

00:26:42: He also has his own views on that.

00:26:43: but you know where I am.

00:26:45: in Austria we actually have quite a lot of... Quite a large department if ecological social ecological economics at University of Business and Economics in Vienna.

00:26:52: But even there my colleagues tell me that It's hard to find kind of a funding call Where they can fit this stuff in.

00:26:58: Right!

00:26:59: You have to embed something bigger And so much of the funding is still technocratic.

00:27:05: and now with EI, right?

00:27:07: So I don't know as well.

00:27:08: maybe if you can talk to... talk to what's happening there.

00:27:12: This is a big topic in Ireland, right?

00:27:14: Are you the data center capital of

00:27:15: Europe?".

00:27:16: Yeah!

00:27:17: How do you see that playing out now with this push in Ireland and how does it play out in terms of universities?

00:27:23: You're

00:27:23: right very much so.

00:27:26: public funding has gotten captured.

00:27:28: I guess one way when we think about academic capture not just business or corporations influencing university directly but economic model of the government, many governments are working within and promoting.

00:27:46: They've been in a sense captured right?

00:27:49: And that they... That industry whether it be big tech here in Ireland, Big Tech is very influential in our public funding.

00:28:01: so what's happening is our public finding goes increasingly to universities research that the private sector wants.

00:28:11: So basically public money is being channeled towards benefiting private sector more than the public, you know?

00:28:19: And so-so that's part of their kind of academic capture cycle I think and that's definitely happening here in Ireland as well where a lot of the public funding for our research Is very much oriented toward the industry.

00:28:36: what industry wants whether it be the farm industry, agricultural industry energy and then big tech is a big one.

00:28:47: So I think this more recent development here in Ireland where multinational corporations, particularly the American big tech companies have headquarters here in Ireland.

00:29:00: And the current government seems to be doing lots of things to appease them and keep them here.

00:29:11: I think not just tax relief but then also these other things like channeling universities their industry, right?

00:29:24: And AI and rather than things that are urgent for the people in communities and households of Ireland which you know more connect with a climate justice perspective.

00:29:37: In terms more frequent disruptions of all kinds in our, not just climate but whole systems with food system and energy systems.

00:29:52: So I think this challenge of public sector being channeled more and more toward private interests, not for the public good is a fundamental climate injustice issue.

00:30:07: So that's part of why Climate Justice perspective I think really is reclaiming the Public Good and Public Services and Public Investment For Public Good Not For Private Good.

00:30:18: But it has gotten very interconnected and intermingled And confused That somehow investing in private interest Is for The Public Good being told, right?

00:30:30: But in fact if you look at the numbers here on Ireland's public sector has just voted to potentially go on strike because many civil servants' public sector is not been paid enough yet.

00:30:43: The government you know, giving all kinds of new incentives to big tech and other big industries.

00:30:50: So there's really an imbalance I think between private and public that is very much connected with the financialization system.

00:31:00: Yeah,

00:31:04: when you describe the university as unfit for purpose.

00:31:08: In your book it starts to become clear right?

00:31:10: It really feels like we're at almost an inflection point.

00:31:13: I went to University in the nineties.

00:31:15: i was part of that generation.

00:31:16: there's

00:31:17: just... The Thatcher era had changed all the vocational colleges and technical

00:31:22: colleges

00:31:22: to universities And then we have new labour this big push to get everyone into university.

00:31:30: what was that all for?

00:31:31: We've now got this huge university sector and as you say it doesn't seem to be fulfilling its purpose, Anne is also in the funding crisis.

00:31:39: to bring in the gender aspect.

00:31:41: This has come up a lot also, and our research on economic side – I don't know if you're aware of economics is kind-of most white male dominated discipline which plays into then to an extent this very technocratic mindset that's seeing everything in terms growth

00:31:57: and technological

00:31:58: solutions rather than maybe more justice oriented solution.

00:32:01: I know you have a lot of personal experience in this, and your book

00:32:04: also

00:32:04: described quite an automatic experience.

00:32:07: You had as young scholar experiencing this kind of patriarchal system... Can you talk at all to how that plays into the whole topic?

00:32:16: The fact that University System is still very male dominated especially those higher ranking positions.

00:32:22: maybe we can then start talking about what

00:32:26: we could do with it.

00:32:29: Universities used to be only men could go, only white men.

00:32:33: You know many universities and universities also have a very colonial history in legacy And so I think we don't always recognize how much of that Legacy is still there?

00:32:46: It's throughout society as well.

00:32:48: So for me i do consider myself a feminist.

00:32:51: I invite everyone to consider themselves feminists.

00:32:53: if you think about power dynamics then thats what being a feminist is for me at least.

00:32:58: And what you realize when we look at our universities, I experienced it in the field of climate and energy with very... The male-dominated focus aligns with the more like, oh this is a problem.

00:33:21: We can fix it with our genius way of thinking and coming up with some new approach where... The problem comes in that I think these are fundamental problems for economics as well.

00:33:33: power isn't integrated right?

00:33:36: And if you don't think about power You're missing so much!

00:33:41: If your just looking at numbers or technology how things work And again, you're not thinking about power and the people who are involved.

00:33:52: People were not involved in developing this strategy or approach on who benefits and whose disadvantage systematically and structurally.

00:34:01: what we're doing then?

00:34:03: really missing out so much?

00:34:06: bringing it back to fossil fuels very intentional Focus over the last thirty years by the fossil fuel industry to capture universities and climate energy research.

00:34:21: Focus it on technical male dominated approaches two kind of controlling in all.

00:34:26: there's a way we can fix.

00:34:27: this has just constrained so much what we could have been thinking about which is more, alternative economic structures alternative political structures.

00:34:37: thingy about power.

00:34:39: how do you distribute power rather than concentrating it.

00:34:43: And I think this is where, um... This concept of petromasculinity comes in which i find very helpful concept especially right now on.

00:34:52: the world looking at World Leaders and Geopolitics is all about connected with fossil fuels and dominating and continuing to extract fossil fuels out a maximum amount.

00:35:06: dominating and controlling people, right?

00:35:10: And so petromasculinity is this idea that there's a certain kind of controlling-dominating toxic masculinity.

00:35:17: That's aligned with a controlling-dominating way of thinking about the earth systems and drill baby drill like just extract more and more which again obviously is climate obstructionist.

00:35:31: it's denying The earth systems and the limits.

00:35:37: And it's a very narrow, dangerous and exploitative way of thinking about things.

00:35:43: but that is the dominant perspective right now.

00:35:46: That has been normalized throughout the world.

00:35:48: as to how things are going Do you just want to come back also big tech in AI?

00:35:55: within this context of gender.

00:35:57: Because big tech, as we know is billionaire male dominated industry that has very much a narrow focus on power concentrating power economic growth and this explosion infrastructure with the data centers that is not even responding to a demand, right?

00:36:20: It's actually creating the infrastructure to promote demand for use of AI.

00:36:26: And it's obviously deeply connected with promoting fossil fuels because... The fossil fuel industry not only is benefiting from the increased energy use, right?

00:36:37: And most of the data centers that are being built our fossil fuel data center.

00:36:41: So there's huge growth in fossil fuel demand but also big tech companies collaborating with the fossil fuel And AI is being used to extract and explore more fossil fuels quicker, cheaper.

00:36:57: New research kind of shows that.

00:36:59: so there's direct synergies with petromasculinists like.

00:37:05: we don't care about the people or communities or climate.

00:37:09: We just want keep growing energy and data centers for some imaginary future.

00:37:19: that's somehow better because of AI, where in fact what we're seeing?

00:37:23: and especially at the universities which have been really heavily.

00:37:28: I would say very strategically used by big tech right to legitimize a normalized promotion.

00:37:36: so In the universities, most universities are promoting AI.

00:37:39: Expecting everyone to use it, encouraging.

00:37:42: and there's a growing movement of us who work in universities that say we don't want to use this but think its good for teaching or learning There is so much evidence of really decline in cognitive development And obviously lots problems with academic integrity and just the generation of slop, right?

00:38:07: And very messy academic work on all kinds both from staff and researchers.

00:38:13: It's really having a very detrimental impact in universities.

00:38:21: but again this has gender component as well because women are more skeptical about using AI.

00:38:28: so Norm gets just projected and everyone has to use it.

00:38:36: Again, its actually reinforcing gender inequities.

00:38:39: And here in Ireland I went.

00:38:42: one of the universities launched their new AI policy and a Microsoft executive was there.

00:38:47: He said if There is one thing that i would get The irish government To do Is increase training on AI for women Because Women aren't using AI as much As men.

00:39:00: I wrote a piece about that saying, you know it may be that AI is the problem not the women right?

00:39:05: So there's a lot there to think about.

00:39:09: The power dynamics and gender within climate energy research.

00:39:13: i've also experienced quite a lot of very prestigious influential people men who literally think they are so smart.

00:39:25: if people just listen you know, the climate crisis could be averted with their technological solutions.

00:39:33: Right?

00:39:34: And so there's some real built-in power dynamics in these institutions and economics and other sciences and academic work that is being used to justify our responses to the climate.

00:39:50: Gosh, yeah.

00:39:51: There's so many anecdotes of my own experiences for coming up there as you were talking.

00:39:56: I guess i was aware a bit but that really brought it home.

00:39:58: and we see the same thing actually in economics You know?

00:40:01: For years economics professors have gone.

00:40:02: how come we can't get more women to come into economics

00:40:05: while at

00:40:06: the same time doing exactly what We're seeing with ecological economics?

00:40:10: The example you mentioned in Vermont Feminist Economics pushed out.

00:40:14: not seen this economics.

00:40:15: Uh...you know..we don't want THAT kind of economics!

00:40:17: WE JUST WANT WOMAN TO DO our economics, because that can legitimise the economics we're doing.

00:40:23: But we don't want any of those things about power dynamics or patriarchy and so on... We do not want that in economics!

00:40:29: Okay then what needs to happen?

00:40:33: I guess you mentioned some other things there but maybe bringing it together ... I know this is three hours when You can start there in terms of what we could do.

00:40:46: Yeah, so I tried to keep the critique of universities into one chapter or two kind goes through all that you know and then the rest is a book i try really re-imagined.

00:40:58: if it were from scratch how would design higher education systems for climate just stable healthy future which obviously a challenging exercise, but one of the ways that I thought... That's kind of helpful for thinking about is once you have vision like alternative futures and how to operationalize it.

00:41:30: You can come up with this imaginary university which would be much more focused on helping people in communities or urgent needs right now corporatized, but I use this framing resist reclaim and restructure which is actually from the energy democracy movement.

00:41:51: Which was focused on kind of thinking about how to re-imagine energy systems in the world.

00:41:56: so that resists is like acknowledging.

00:41:58: we can't always be resisting all the time right?

00:42:01: We're in the system's that want change.

00:42:03: there are times where you say no i'm not going do even though somebody wants me to do, and I'm in the system.

00:42:11: So that's where you're kind of the resistor—that could include protesting or saying i'm not going part of that project because it's industry-funded...I've had that experience…and then been excluded from some cool projects.

00:42:25: but trying activity, whatever you're working on and how your engaging.

00:42:34: And then reclaiming is about kind of like thinking about higher education should be for the public good.

00:42:40: so many us do have more control over what we teach in a classroom than how we teach right?

00:42:47: So that's place where lot people who work at universities to kinda reclaim space.

00:42:56: But there are lots of other ways to kind of reclaim not just the curriculum, but their research.

00:43:01: that's being done reclaimed.

00:43:03: The community and public good focus by partnering with communities rather than partnering with multinational companies those kinds things.

00:43:12: And then restructure is bigger imaginary right?

00:43:16: Which it very hard do.

00:43:17: we don't have Handbook on how to restructure either the economy or you know system is of higher education, but we can be advocating for change and changes that are not simple.

00:43:31: Changes changes that our more systemic an structural and that's where kind vision of restructuring in how he can actually do things better.

00:43:40: working toward a restructured whether be advocating from public funding You know those kinds of things.

00:43:47: so one other the things that I've gotten involved in actually wrote about it and a book but its expanded since ever.

00:43:54: at the book is this new emerging climate justice universities union which isn't international collective where.

00:44:04: People who are engaged in higher education or you don't have to be part of a university, but many of us are.

00:44:10: But people see the power and potential of universities To be more transformative towards what is actually needed in society right now And we're doing with climate justice University union.

00:44:22: really just creating spaces for resisting reclaiming and restructuring and strategizing about how do go about those things?

00:44:31: Creating space where can talk Alternatives in a way that, you know where we can support each other and thinking about alternative ways of doing things.

00:44:41: And also advocating outside the university to policy makers too more broad publics how to engage on bigger structural and systemic change.

00:44:54: so those are some I'm involved in and one of the things that we found with The Climate Justice Universities Union, people can look at the website.

00:45:04: It's just climatejusticeuniversitiesunion.org And anyone could join.

00:45:10: there is no membership fee or anything.

00:45:13: One thing we've found when talk to people all around the world really about how do we resist reclaiming restructure within a higher education.

00:45:26: It resonates, right?

00:45:27: Because people can see how these institutions – public institutions most of them are really struggling and not fulfilling their potential.

00:45:40: And so there's quite broad interest in space for people to come together.

00:45:45: I think that this time is a great disruption collective and coalition building, right?

00:45:55: And supporting each other in thinking about these things.

00:45:58: And recognizing we're not the only ones who are thinking along this lines.

00:46:01: a lot of people it's just counter cultural almost so you have to find people To be inspired and feel supported one thing that is done with climate justice union creating space for exploring how and what to do.

00:46:27: Yeah I love that, yeah i can see like what you were saying so many universities and also students and professors.

00:46:33: right because there are many faculty who aren't happy with the system either but they're stuck!

00:46:39: Whether it's because of, you know having to get funding whether its public funding or private funding.

00:46:45: Having their research published in certain journals and the rankings And all those different ways that universities I guess are judged so like working together To me would seem absolutely vital if we're going to tackle this.

00:46:58: i think what I particularly liked about your vision as well is seeing The University As kind of a service community which it seems to be really vital.

00:47:06: And we were part of our filming for this documentary, We Were Up in Scotland In Spring For A Festival Of Economics Which is kind of mainly heterodox but a lot the theme was around well-being economics and particularly community wealth building which I know something also that's becoming more talked about in Ireland.

00:47:22: What i was interested To discover so Community Wealth Building Is This Concept Where You're Trying To Create More Localised Economies

00:47:28: Centred On

00:47:28: Meeting Local Needs So Less Extractive I Guess As Way Maybe Get Away From The Fact as we're seeing everywhere.

00:47:34: We are also seeing in Austria, you know restricted governments whether it's cities municipalities

00:47:39: needing

00:47:40: to give into the data centre being built on the boundary because they need tax revenues or whatever rather than doing that.

00:47:47: looking at ways The universities that were present, we're not the main big universities.

00:47:57: It was small local colleges and the former technical and vocational colleges who are really getting into this topic of community health buildings.

00:48:03: I don't know to what extent you see it as maybe being also something they could play in bringing more into this movement to reclaim the economy.

00:48:12: essentially Absolutely!

00:48:14: And i've only been back at Ireland for two years.

00:48:19: The community wealth building is something that, you know I'm personally very interested in and it aligns with these kinds of alternative approaches.

00:48:31: And there's quite growing activity here particularly the Bohemian Football Club surprisingly an organization They have just launched as part of their climate justice work, this new community wealth building initiative.

00:48:49: And so far there's a few academics engaged and aware what is going on but I think that they are much potential for more you

00:48:58: know?

00:48:59: So definitely thats where i'm working on in building toward...I think theres also Ireland hosting the next international degrowth conference.

00:49:09: Okay.

00:49:09: In August, twenty-twenty seven at UC University College Cork and That is going to be beyond just an academic conference.

00:49:19: It's going to a bigger kind of cultural event as well and festival about alternative economic visions, actions and activism.

00:49:29: that I think it another place for these ideas also community wealth building.

00:49:35: in others come the four growing precarity students staff in our higher education systems and then also, you know.

00:49:48: In terms of who has access to higher education.

00:49:53: more broadly these issues are really gaining momentum for advocacy I think particularly with the Big public investments in that are more industry-oriented to write corporate without investing In the basic living expense, living conditions for people including Indian universities.

00:50:18: And so I think this brings To the fore you know within our Within the higher education institutions as kind of a microcosm Of society.

00:50:28: right what's happening?

00:50:29: More broadly is also happening in in the university.

00:50:33: That i think brings an opportunity because there's greater awareness about how the current economic model is not working.

00:50:42: Yeah, and just trying to fight for each additional cost of living increase or here in Ireland they just announced that we're working on a new early career researcher program And they said this will be the stipend next five years.

00:51:00: And they just like a number, which is so doesn't make any sense.

00:51:04: You know?

00:51:04: Right.

00:51:05: It's like three or four percent.

00:51:06: Exactly!

00:51:09: So this kind of thinking... I mean there are some many blatant kinds things where i feel that these opportunities for alternatives and the community wealth building approach has different ways to think about investing in public good.

00:51:30: Yeah

00:51:31: Yeah, yeah very disruptive times.

00:51:34: And

00:51:34: what I like to say is that it is during disruptive time when bigger transformation there's openings for us and we don't nobody knows how or When?

00:51:44: Or What mechanism.

00:51:46: but i think keeping you know continuing To expand conversations and preparations and ideas and developing research and teaching in all of this Highlighting the gaps, right?

00:52:00: Is so important.

00:52:01: So that we are prepared when there are more specific opportunities and windows of opportunity for bigger change.

00:52:09: Yeah Absolutely That makes a lot sense.

00:52:12: Thank you Jenny.

00:52:12: The final question I mean You talked here about potential opportunities Something they were trying to do with this.

00:52:18: We've talked quite a little bit on problem bringing in people like yourself to talk about the ways that this system is upheld and pointing us towards what we can do.

00:52:27: So I don't know if you have any feedback, in terms of where we might go next?

00:52:31: Yeah no thank-you!

00:52:32: Thank-you!!

00:52:32: I think one area that needs a lot more attention... ...is what people are doing research on at universities.... ...and what they're not doing research ON.

00:52:41: And THIS IS

00:52:41: WHERE?!

00:52:42: The economic model fits IN.

00:52:47: Fossil fuels, you know We're not doing a lot of research on how globally to phase out fossil fuels.

00:52:52: but also like How?

00:52:53: To phase out plastics right as another example or how Or how do even phase out the neoliberal economic dominant model Right.

00:53:03: Like we need research and how did?

00:53:05: yes?

00:53:06: So anyway This is this idea of ex-novation which isn't kind of opposite of knit The yin yang.

00:53:11: innovation.

00:53:12: innovations come up with new things.

00:53:14: Ex-novations has had it phase out things that we know are destructive and no longer serving humanity well.

00:53:20: We're not very good at doing research in promoting extnovation, so that's one of the big ideas.

00:53:29: there is a lot different people working on it or coming up with those kind questions but I do think again acknowledging our power influence over higher education institutions To supporting, I think we need to be during this disruptive time also thinking about how to excavate away from the systems and structures in ways of thinking as well as their technologies.

00:54:00: How to phase them out?

00:54:02: Wonderful!

00:54:02: Maybe that's a good way to stop.

00:54:04: Thank you!

00:54:05: This is wonderful.

00:54:05: thank you Jenny.

00:54:10: You've been listening to Invisible Handcuffs Unchaining Economics hosted by Nghe Katie Shields with Music Art & Production by Philip Melchers.

00:54:18: If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider liking and following us on YouTube or your favourite podcasting platform.

00:54:23: And by subscribing to our website at TheVisibleHandcuffs.com where you can also find the show notes for more about the project.

00:54:31: with that Thank You For Listening.