Episode 08: How economics education limits our understanding of what is possible with Stefan Pühringer and Theresa Hager

00:00:00: If your only way of getting engaged with economic matters in the study programme is these introductory courses, Economics One-O-One.

00:00:08: Then you really are a very narrow view on economic activity because there's nothing like an embeddedness of economy and society or ecology in instrumented introductory course.

00:00:20: Maybe the power of economics is not only through these economic experts on one hand, but really in this very broad and basic understanding.

00:00:29: And a narrative about something like economic growth is securing well-being The

00:00:36: whole growth discourse or green growth discourse like a really huge narrative, right?

00:00:41: In the sense that we think that we need growth in order to be able to live or sustain our system.

00:00:47: And of course it's true because for capitalism to function... We need growth.

00:00:51: but this doesn't mean that we cannot go beyond capitalism and think about different forms how to live.

00:00:56: But this narrative is super strong!

00:00:58: There are people coming from economics education or studied economics.

00:01:04: Well, it's the queen of social sciences right?

00:01:06: So all important people actually study economics and so they then go out into different institutions And kind of transpire this narrative down to the masses.

00:01:14: That is why its difficult for them imagine To live in a world without growth.

00:01:35: Hello and welcome to Invisible Handcuffs, a podcast that seeks to expose the economic ideology underpinning our crisis.

00:01:41: And explore ways we can free ourselves from its chains.

00:01:44: My name is Kati Shields and I'm a recovering mainstream economist... ...and your host!

00:01:50: This episode was recorded at the end of summer, and has been released just a few weeks later during a week in which many universities are opening their doors for new wave as students.

00:02:11: Which makes it pretty apt conversation to start with because this is all about the influence of economics education on our mindsets What we can do in the face of multiple overlapping crises from climate change to cost-of living crisis, to raging inequality.

00:02:30: Stefan and Theresa work across two heterodox institutes in Linz – The Institute for the Complete Analysis Of The Economy And The Social Ecological Transformation Lab.

00:02:40: Both seek to embed economy into society & ecology and explore what alternative economic approaches as well other disciplines offer in meeting today's challenges.

00:02:51: A common response by mainstream or neoclassical economists of anyone critiquing their field is that the said critique just doesn't understand economics.

00:02:59: Or indeed, many critics are only coming to introductory courses and if you go on to study a master's or PhD then you would encounter far more nuance – real-world tethering!

00:03:11: Well both Devon and todays actually studied neoclasical economics at PHD level and they retain their criticisms so much that they have effectively dedicated their academic careers to trying to reform economics from the ground up.

00:03:26: Not only do they argue those more advanced degrees are not necessarily any better, citing for example a lack of reform in the same macroeconomic models failed to foresee the financial crisis or still shocking lack interest by top journals publishing anything about climate change but also argued that those introductory courses, the ones this week and next many young people across Europe in the Northern Hemisphere will be offered not only as part of their economics degrees but perhaps if they're studying law, humanities accounting even engineering.

00:03:59: That these are actually most formative!

00:04:01: Their own research has shown Economics One-on-one affects students' political views... ...and understanding of societal challenges.

00:04:08: We also address the ongoing problem gender bias in economics with women and people of a non-male, also non-white or middle class background being the least represented.

00:04:19: And about how competition in higher education system but particularly in economics itself is partly to blame.

00:04:27: however woman in particular respond differently to their competitive pressures published on those top journals while for those who do stay in fight they read at the top.

00:04:36: Those are often ones that will only conform to standards of discipline.

00:04:42: As such, having a few leading women economists doesn't necessarily mean we're going to see deeper reforms because they've often been trained in the same neoclassical mindset.

00:04:50: And so we cannot just focus on trying to attract more women into the discipline if the discipline itself doesn't also change how economics is taught and practiced If it doesn't embrace pluralism of thought or allow for more critical engagement.

00:05:03: More critiques have fundamental assumptions say around the sanctity of economic growth or capitalism as the only possible economic system.

00:05:11: Brief note, before we start if you're watching this on YouTube We had some problems with Teresa's connection which means that parts of the video are a little out-of-sync!

00:05:19: We hope that will not detact from what was really valuable and insightful conversation.

00:05:24: If you want to learn more I've added links in show notes.

00:05:27: With that please join me in welcoming Stefan Pudinger And Teresa Hagger.

00:05:31: So welcome Stefan & Teresa.

00:05:34: Thank You so much for joining us today.

00:05:36: Yeah, thanks for inviting us.

00:05:38: Thank

00:05:38: you for having us.

00:05:40: Wonderful to have you here on what is a quite warm and clammy summer day in Austria.

00:05:45: I'm in Vienna.

00:05:46: You're sitting in Linz.

00:05:47: We'll get into what your doing there shortly.

00:05:49: But i'd like to dive in with sort of how we got connected And now I learned about your work and Stefan was trying To think back.

00:05:56: so the first time that we met or you might not admit me but I remember seeing you On our panel A couple years ago talking About new curriculum That has just been come out for the lower secondary school in Austria.

00:06:08: And you had some quite interesting things to say about that, and it really opened my perspective on helping me understand also some of the things are going wrong with economics.

00:06:17: but maybe I can hand over too?

00:06:18: Can you explain also to our listeners what this was all?

00:06:22: Yeah,

00:06:22: this was kind of a panel discussion on future trajectories of economics education.

00:06:27: My role as summer was to get a broad introduction into what economic seduction is somehow missing?

00:06:34: It's also the title paper I published years ago where we tried to somehow... ...get better understanding why people learn very peculiar understanding of economics due their introductory courses.

00:06:50: And there it was read on the primary education sector in schools, where somehow a very narrow image of what is meant by economic activities presented as kind of the normal standard how to perceive economic activity.

00:07:04: This is very much focusing on markets efficiency and functionality really these very core concepts of new classical mainstream economics.

00:07:14: This is somehow the first, or maybe one of the first ways students and pupils get in touch with economic issues.

00:07:23: And there's a pretty critical broad, critical discussion debate about these... The very firsthand, very narrow understanding of economic activity.

00:07:32: It was when we got into more... This obviously has a core focus on what you're doing at the institute you know, the topic of education.

00:07:40: But for me this panel which I remember was a little bit spicy in terms of that tone of discussion because there had been this process about updating the curriculum, economics curriculum for schools in Austria and it was really surprising how political.

00:07:57: If what you'd experienced has been there, if he can talk to that.

00:08:00: There seem a lot of pushback as we say they're so much growing criticism the way economics is taught this very new classical mainstream market focus view and yet changing that curriculum in Austria seemed be a very tall order

00:08:11: As now it's just part.

00:08:13: geography and economic education.

00:08:16: And then was this debate of introduction into separate subject with economics And there were several pushes for these, coming from the Red Eye Employers Association.

00:08:26: Also introducing kind of an entrepreneur field in Austria which is providing pupils with their narrow understanding... ...of seeing economy through the lenses and being an entrepreneur starting a company.

00:08:45: kind of several pushes also supported by me.

00:08:48: We both think tanks pushing for this agenda introducing economics in a way that is very, yeah, very isolated and focusing on these perspectives off.

00:08:58: employers and companies are not really abroad.

00:09:01: understanding of economic activity which could also mean a kind of broad understanding how things are produced then produced and consumed.

00:09:12: This does also with consumers and producers, inequality, trust relations in there.

00:09:18: All this is somehow skipped out only focusing on these perspectives of profit maximizing.

00:09:25: Yeah so Unternehmens Fuderschein in English probably translates as entrepreneur's license like a driver's license reducing economics further In the current context.

00:09:35: it was pretty well for me to see that And As you mentioned That debate Is still going On in Austria.

00:09:39: So maybe if I then if I can bring you in Teresa to your work.

00:09:43: So after we met there, I was organising the Beyond Growth Conference in Austria which was inspired by a conference in Brussels of this same name about moving beyond us possession with GDP Which we know is not correlated with well-being, which was very much correlated with environmental destruction.

00:10:01: This misses a lot of the inequality and to move beyond that look at different ways of managing our economies in different goals for them... And I thought this education piece really important!

00:10:12: You led a workshop today particularly on that.

00:10:16: so can you maybe talk about?

00:10:19: That and why you see it is so important in this puzzle of how we shift to economies that actually work for us, not billionaires or destroying the planet.

00:10:28: Yeah sure!

00:10:29: So I think a lot.

00:10:29: what would do at our institute is look at... What kind of knowledge is out there right about the economy?

00:10:35: because or what we think is that this influences how we talk about the economy and what we can actually plan alternatives for, of course their education is super important but there are generally narratives on different subjects.

00:10:53: And they kind of transpires to lay people through policy and institutions.

00:10:59: so what workshop was about?

00:11:04: it's just motivated by... We see that we face multiple crises, which are all connected to our economic system.

00:11:10: And thus need alternative ways of imagining futures and a different economic system.

00:11:18: but that's why you concentrate on narratives about this psychological transformation In order to be able to transpire some of the things we're experiencing now with those multiple crisis... ...we need different narratives because they actually influence how think about the way that we support ourselves or actually produce stuff.

00:11:40: That is not like changing a planet, so it's kind of what you do there and also when tried at your workshop?

00:11:47: Yeah I'd love to go on with that just as you were talking now.

00:11:52: To give one example for me... My daughter in upper high school was getting economics and they asked There was a survey about what they think of things like whether there should be debt break in Austria, which is what we have here.

00:12:09: In Germany.

00:12:10: I ended up having this whole conversation with my daughter and her friends explaining the monetary system because that's narrative right off you know?

00:12:19: We should manage public finances household it's so ingrained then obviously impacts then what you think is possible and more options that we might have.

00:12:33: In the context of young growth, a whole growth discourse or green-growth discourse it's really like a huge narrative in the sense that we need growth to be able live.

00:12:45: either sustain our system because for capitalism We need growth, but that doesn't mean like we cannot go beyond capitalism and think of different forms how to live.

00:12:56: But this narrative is super strong right?

00:12:58: And there are people coming from economics education or they studied economics because well it's the queen of social sciences.

00:13:05: so all important people actually study economics transpire this narrative down to the masses kind of, and that's why it is difficult for them imagine to live in a world without growth or living with death breaks.

00:13:20: What you are saying right?

00:13:23: For mainstream economists or someone studying economics sounds like pretty radical I mean even... And this has come up from past interviews that i've held as well.

00:13:32: Even sort-of questioning capitalism was often just taken.

00:13:37: We're in a capitalist system.

00:13:40: This is the economy at the market, so how did you then get into economics?

00:13:44: Did come through the mainstream and suddenly decide this doesn't work or what was your entry point for me to start with?

00:13:53: actually quite idealistic.

00:13:55: So I was reading up on world hunger at Chilean development of multinational corporations in debt right And from it.

00:14:02: that was like this huge puzzle Like How can be that so many children are starving when we have on the other side just whole efflums?

00:14:08: And so I think for me, this was the motivation to actually get into economics able to study like how yeah.

00:14:15: How that works and how they can accumulate some much power on why you can decide on that or why not?

00:14:20: On how do we can rule this?

00:14:22: Of course if you read the descriptions of economic curricula it sounds super interesting right?

00:14:28: then these sound like they promise okay You're gonna understand all the connections but at once during your studies in a data mainstream study The University Then you just realize like what you were talking before, right?

00:14:40: You have those introductory courses and you realized that everything that you study there is actually not connected to the real world.

00:14:47: problems.

00:14:48: And for me, I had the lack of having also some heterodox economists at my university and then connected with them when there wasn't a group or more pluralism in economics.

00:14:57: that were kind of the alleyways to do different understanding.

00:15:00: it became from like understanding into actually transforming economics as discipline right?

00:15:05: To fight for this diversity and to fight for actually disconnection through the real world.

00:15:10: Wonderful.

00:15:11: So yeah, I'd love to pick up a little bit later on and how that's going.

00:15:14: but yeah maybe Stefan would you also like to share your.

00:15:18: what is your backstory?

00:15:19: Yeah it was interesting because i didn't really know this although we're working quite closely together.

00:15:25: This indeed quite similar in my case.

00:15:27: so my motivation with that are also rooted in these inequality power imbalances And somehow getting better understanding of capitalism able to criticize it on a solid basis.

00:15:43: And this was kind of my motivation in getting into economics, and then I was also surprised quite from the beginning that we are really very strongly at least in our social study in socioeconomics together... ...and there is rather broader interdisciplinary approaches as well but study program and then also in the PhD.

00:16:09: It was really very heavily focused on mathematical modeling, abstract way of supply and demand curves and optimization strategies which was very demanding on a mathematical theoretical level, yeah.

00:16:30: And then really these questions of political societal impact or economic reasoning did not show up in any courses.

00:16:38: so we also had kind where the broad introductory is with economic thoughts.

00:16:42: this was more less to place for people.

00:16:46: different approaches were there But the rest wasn't really.

00:16:49: And then I also did similar things in organizing a reading circle on critical economy with different colleagues and links, also influenced by this broader movement for pluralism and post-artistic economics in early two thousands years.

00:17:05: This was then somehow providing ourselves with different critical approaches and perspectives on economics.

00:17:15: Yeah!

00:17:16: led my way into still kind of economics or socio-economics and also engaging in this institute here, which is really a hub for critical economic thinking.

00:17:28: Also from an interdisciplinary perspective one of the main focuses now on what kind of economy some are aggravating socio-ecological transformation to provide alternative ways.

00:17:46: somehow again, how does mainstream economic reasoning hinder or even provide a strong barrier for any kind of economics beyond very narrow understanding of our capitalism works and profit maximization is on the basis off growth imperative in economics.

00:18:05: So you did go through the holes right up to PhD.

00:18:11: uh...in mainstream?

00:18:12: economics, because it's often one of the I guess criticisms that i hear from mainstream economists.

00:18:19: if they're talking about other economists not in the main streams but heterodox is like oh they just don't understand economics or... But you've done this.

00:18:26: You have gone through and also thought was interesting.

00:18:34: This interview will come out later, but we would open in Oxford Filming.

00:18:37: Was rethinking economics?

00:18:39: Student movement that started after the financial crisis and they're still pushing... They are also organising meeting groups so kind of what you were saying trying to fill-in those gaps That the mainstream education doesn't give them To figure it.

00:18:52: then Yeah What needs..what could actually be helpful?

00:18:56: So I'd love to talk a little bit more about The goals at the Institute And what your doing.

00:19:00: But can before we get there If We Can Talk A Little Bit more specifically about what is going wrong.

00:19:06: One of the reasons that I wanted to bring you and both of them particularly, which was an early version but it's kind held back right from the social ecological transformation you're talking about.

00:19:24: That's kind of an academic term that basically means how do we shift to economies, work for people and planet?

00:19:29: And were being held by these narratives which are upheld or reinforced by economic discipline.

00:19:35: as I said today is a queen of social sciences.

00:19:37: all our decision makers have got models in their head.

00:19:40: it very hard to shift them.

00:19:43: one reason why they model perpetuate.

00:19:47: even though there so much wrong with.

00:19:50: And we can talk as well about the fact that your institute was set up after the financial crisis, no one saw it.

00:19:56: The economists didn't see it coming right so clearly.

00:19:58: there are fundamental problems not just on the climate side but also in terms of a financial system and money and so on.

00:20:03: But at... One of the reasons that we're not getting this transformation within the discipline This sort of moving forward reform whatever you want to call is issue self-selection bias.

00:20:16: a particular type of people are, whether they're attracted to it or stay with

00:20:20: that.

00:20:21: I think you are both kind the exceptions.

00:20:23: that proves the rule and other people talking about exception.

00:20:25: but we should also say the majority of people who study economics don't take what's at your heart.

00:20:30: Maybe Stefan if want pick up first on this paper which was written in First, introduce me to this.

00:20:36: Can you talk a little bit about what you did and what your findings were?

00:20:39: Yeah yeah I'm pretty good.

00:20:40: so as you mentioned that i was also somehow thinking now I really read on these ecological how mainstream economic reasoning somehow provides us ecologic guitar and also these kind of ecological issues are hardly present anywhere in mainstream economics.

00:20:57: but As you mentioned the financial crisis This is my main motivation and also for my PhD which was really on this topic, why is there not any sign of change in economics?

00:21:09: So I entitled it The Strange Non-Crisis Of Economics.

00:21:13: Because somehow the financial crisis proved such a strong indication that something is wrong particularly in these very unregulated financial market system... ...which is reducturously at least closer related to this very abstract way of perfect functioning markets.

00:21:30: then And then we have a huge crisis coming out of this financial sector, and at least for a few weeks or months also economic experts were somehow puzzled that did not really foresee these crises come in.

00:21:42: This has such huge implications and consequences afterwards.

00:21:47: Nonetheless there was hardly any change afterward.

00:21:49: so the beginning point many new policy models before the financial crisis which didn't.

00:21:57: There was no agency for banks, so there were micro models without banks because when someone assumed that they do did not really have an impact on this national market.

00:22:07: Because there's only intermediaries and so we don't really yeah as a crucial function in there.

00:22:13: And then afterwards something changed also within the mainstream.

00:22:16: So the mainstream is not a monolithic block without any change?

00:22:23: But still, we are very much especially in economic education focusing on this very abstract model.

00:22:30: Although for sure also new economists know that it is not really describing reality.

00:22:36: and there's a great Nobel lecture of Gerard de Breux who received the Nobel Prize for his proofs of general equilibrium theory in the nineteen fifties And he being rather mathematical economist In fact, the mathematician said that what we are doing here for sure has nothing to do with reality.

00:22:57: But this is also not my motivation.

00:22:59: I am building a perfect model A perfect mathematical model.

00:23:03: And some of these thinking it's really still quite strong and they're neoclassical Economist say okay?

00:23:09: I'm Building my.

00:23:11: my perfectly gross model in reality isn't really place Here.

00:23:15: This Is The One Side and most Of The Other Economists Would Somehow Be Between.

00:23:20: They would for sure say that these very strongly formal models are not representing reality, but then if we use later on reality checks and imply somehow real-world data than it's somehow also levels out.

00:23:34: And then you have this really strong impact of the still narrative or economic reasoning of some how perfect markets which function best?

00:23:43: Capitalism is a system with shallots to growth has ended.

00:23:47: world hunger introduce young economists students to think like an economist.

00:23:54: and this is also kind of the starting point in economics textbooks that although we know, it says not bad much do with reality.

00:24:03: The first place you somehow have to learn how things like an economy when you enter a study of economics?

00:24:09: And then there's a lot of discussions.

00:24:13: tried to pick on these debates also in this paper, where we had an empirical study of how students' economics and Austrian Germany... ...how their motivations for studying economics were.

00:24:29: Also the first experiences when they entered the introductory courses.

00:24:35: And most of the students enter with a variety of motivations.

00:24:40: So one end is very Epistemic motivation, so trying to understand how the economy works from these epistemic roots and how different economic activities interlinked with each other.

00:24:53: So this is one motivation.

00:24:55: another motivation also helped by many first year students was a better practical orientation Not understanding of these scientific level but rather on how really a company works or at the state intervenes and regulates the economy.

00:25:12: But very practical oriented, also trying to apply this later in their professional careers.

00:25:19: And then there's also a strand of economic students with the moral, political motivation who want to somehow understand capitalism.

00:25:28: Also maybe more critical approach treats.

00:25:31: these are three motivations.

00:25:33: and that broader little term economics education then says okay on one hand we have kind of a selection bias in there so people who rather tend to use this kind of mathematics, but also these rather selfish individuals self-select into economics.

00:25:52: This is very gendered.

00:25:54: The reason we can't talk about it much more informed than I do.

00:25:57: and on the other hand not only the selection bias.

00:26:00: But then if you have this interclination within or in first years of studying economics So If You Then Come Into Economics And There are also empirical studies who show this quite illustratively So on the one hand we have these rather selfish, agristic students already self-selected in economics.

00:26:19: But then later if you interview them again a few years after they started studying economics... They are much more egoistic and selfish not that much interested in inequality anymore because somehow they've gone through this period of thinking like an economist thinking optimization logics And then there's whole moral motivation to disappear.

00:26:42: Yeah, the interests in a broader political and bad email society embedding of economics are not that strong anymore.

00:26:51: There was as yes fully that times with it... And also my personal experience like just taking economics because its part about business degree.

00:27:02: The statement that I took from the Sunday, particularly stood out to me.

00:27:06: is you mentioned?

00:27:07: yes.

00:27:08: The empirical findings show students enter economics curricula for different motivations but end up remarkably disappointed after going through them mathematical and methods oriented introductory courses.

00:27:18: You also talk about it like this anecdotally, I heard similar stories even from people who are trying to change economics within that they just get so kind of worn down.

00:27:27: They either switch off as it goes through the ropes and finish up then become a banker or trader.

00:27:33: whatever is there therefore... Or these sort of shift into something else?

00:27:37: Can you talk about this as well?

00:27:39: And proofread also.

00:27:40: today has come in on gender aspect which i think is particularly important.

00:27:44: Yeah In our study we interviewed for international students in the biggest universities, Germany and Austria.

00:27:54: In very economics core courses.

00:27:58: so not different kinds of business degrees but really economics core study programs.

00:28:03: And what we found here is exactly you describing.

00:28:06: he often described it as kind of a tunnel.

00:28:08: So going through this tunnel of very formalized mathematical thinking Yeah!

00:28:13: In economic textbooks on the very first page make your rights.

00:28:17: do learn to think like an economist.

00:28:20: And this means preceding the economy through numbers and supply-and-demand curves, and every behavior stands somehow structured into seeing kind of a rational behavior in there.

00:28:29: Also many students describe it as a rather painful experience really being disappointed again having studied these mathematical phases.

00:28:40: What we are learning here in this economic study has nothing to do with my real-world expectations or experiences.

00:28:47: For sure there's not any kind of ecology, but also no people behaving like these very... Standardize and abstract models of home economicals, for instance.

00:28:59: So this very rational economic man or was a man?

00:29:02: And then going through the spirit many have them also described as kind of cognitive dissonance.

00:29:06: so on one hand they are these real-world experiences with economic activities... ...and in other hands this very textbook oriented understanding how to economy works there's strong separation.

00:29:18: in their end students have defined kind of coping mechanisms today with his dissonances.

00:29:25: Yeah, they unfold in different ways.

00:29:27: But yeah as you mentioned many of them opt out and others try to somehow choose subjects later on which are a bit more open.

00:29:35: but then so much is already lost because people have to somehow trained thinking only through these lenses of optimal behavior.

00:29:43: Then just popping up and trying to relate it again afterwards is kind of difficult.

00:29:48: And most students for sure already in the study programs have invested much energy, an effort learning how think like an economist then they also want apply this somehow.

00:30:00: Still having critical attitude isn't that easy.

00:30:03: so there are instances or examples For the students also these study structures with bachelor degrees and very much pressure on receiving year grades, being prepared for difficult courses or lectures is really pushing a lot of pressure.

00:30:27: Yeah, I just wanted to add.

00:30:29: And that's total evidence but from the people we know and started with of course a lot of critical scholars or students actually didn't drop out is exactly what Stefan also said right?

00:30:40: But imagine you are not even allowed use word capitalism kind.

00:30:47: if your motivation in there change things then offcourse they're gonna dropout.

00:30:53: for women, but also people with a different ethnic background or socio-economic backgrounds.

00:30:59: It becomes even harder to stick around simply because you don't see those role models.

00:31:03: so all your professors are white and they're male... So you don' t see yourself represented there.

00:31:08: But at the same time also all of their peer group like other people that mostly whites, males and efflents.

00:31:13: again I think for these people sticking around become hard as well.

00:31:17: They get dissolutionized.

00:31:19: maybe it has some experiences but then you don't see yourself and it becomes even easier to just say, okay I'm going to focus on something else because this is not working out for me.

00:31:31: And what's also super interesting are those people that stick around or women specifically who stick around if they look at their positions of the views in the world we can see further advanced that become more mainstreamized kind in this canon, that they've now worked so hard staying.

00:31:52: And the great promise of having a diverse group of people doing economics is all different experiences represented and with that also can counteract biases right?

00:32:04: In methods or questions we ask but also approaches on how to involve politically or not.

00:32:11: Of course if it's lost through indoctrination... then it's also really difficult to argue for more diversity in there.

00:32:17: But yeah, we should have those experiences as well at the end of Korea kindof.

00:32:24: Yeah I think that is an important point and actually like to dig into a little bit more because It's often presented and there are some studies, maybe we can also pick up on this because it was a more recent paper that you had co-authored.

00:32:36: First of all something kind of weird happening in economics right?

00:32:39: There has been push across STEM for various historical reasons which would be picked upon other interviews.

00:32:47: Try to push itself into more of the STEM category because it's a more scientific mathematical category, whether or not it belongs there.

00:32:55: We have seen big pushes across these categories trying to get women in and economics seems like that trend was happening but also plateaued.

00:33:07: maybe you can talk about this as well?

00:33:11: that there's this stark discrimination with respect to receding tenure.

00:33:17: So in economics, if you look at the performance and compare it across disciplines then you see a lot of disciplines where there is no lack of discrimination.

00:33:27: but when men or women perform equally they get the same chance for ten years.

00:33:32: Even though women perform as much as they still get discriminated against we can still see them getting there.

00:33:38: That really seems like a real problem blatant discrimination of women in the discipline.

00:33:45: And yet we set out to look at what's actually happening there, and our hypothesis is that... We experience this competitiveization of academia more generally.

00:33:56: so we see that competitive formats become more important rankings becomes more important but also quantitative evaluation methods and criteria.

00:34:06: Economists are especially susceptible to these mechanisms, to this competition because they love the rankings right?

00:34:14: But also do you have competition as like a cornerstone in theorizing so that we really believe in this power of like competition delivering the most efficient than best outcome.

00:34:23: And there's also focus on individual rights.

00:34:26: So those were all aspects which is very important in economics.

00:34:31: And now in the second step, we argue that competitive practices.

00:34:34: So it's a way one looks or perceives competition but also acts in.

00:34:38: competition is actually gendered and women just develop different strategies how to compete right?

00:34:43: A man also have different strategies.

00:34:45: But this whole weighted competition is enacted in economics.

00:34:49: It really not favorable for women as group but rather favourable men as groups.

00:34:55: Then those men that are already in the discipline kind of make all their rules for the competitions, right?

00:35:02: And so therefore it's really hard for women to finish rules or actually gain these competitions.

00:35:07: This could be one mechanism to explain why it is very hard for a woman like get her foot into economic sense.

00:35:13: and not just women It also about people with different race or ethnic minorities or socioeconomic background which also have the same approaches towards competition.

00:35:26: Yeah, I'd like to also talk a bit more about the implications of that.

00:35:30: But just as you were talking there... ...I wonder if this is another fact or so?

00:35:35: There was a table which came out recently and it's published in a BBC article being put together by The UK Institute for Fiscal Studies.

00:35:41: I think its kind of right-leaning thing at the time but the numbers are incredible!

00:35:46: I have them actually here almost.

00:35:49: So we're looking at the lifetime earnings of economists again.

00:35:52: rankings are ranking put together And the whole framing of that article was, look what you should study if you want to earn most.

00:36:01: The top is medicine and second was economics.

00:36:05: by a big margin!

00:36:06: You could get twice the earnings from economics as business or law and more than three times from engineering.

00:36:12: Now we know looking at our number there's huge skew here for people who do economics because they have to go into banking or trading.

00:36:20: so maybe making millions.

00:36:21: That has clearly skewed.

00:36:23: but I wonder I don't know if this has come up in your analysis, that image of economics is the route into banking or finance and it's not the route to figuring out how we deal with our crisis.

00:36:36: It's about tackling equality.

00:36:37: but then when you have a problem because there are still positions where you do need to have an economic degree so what will work for the government department?

00:36:45: Maybe at some point actually let me start talking more about what the implications would be for policy.

00:36:53: So, also maybe this getting into economics.

00:36:56: Because on the one hand you have this clear-cut economics study programs where people are somehow trained to be an economist.

00:37:02: but introductory courses in economics present many, many study programs across all fields from humanities and natural sciences has a kind of introduction course in economics.

00:37:14: If your only way for someone getting engaged with economic matters is this introductory course in Economics One-on-One Then you really have a very narrow view on economic activity and also the relations embedded in economics into... society or into ecology.

00:37:32: because there is nothing like an embeddedness of the economy in society, or ecology in instrumented structure causes.

00:37:39: So maybe that power economics isn't only through these economic experts on one hand but really on this very broad understanding and this somehow also ties to what we were talking about earlier on this economic narrative.

00:37:52: so economic reasoning.

00:37:54: So it is not really this formalized, erratic economic models which are then impactful but rather very basic understanding and a narrative of something like economic growth is securing well-being or something.

00:38:12: Or profit maximization kind of natural behavior or utility maximizing the kind of economic activity everyone does so... This very basic understanding is an impact for them.

00:38:25: There's also a huge literature rather coming from economic sociology on performativity of economics where it was shown in many instances that the way we think about the economy, Then also has very strong impact on society and political levels.

00:38:43: And he also mentioned new liberal think tanks, which are a really important role in this transmission of economic reasoning into a broader politically debate or public debate?

00:38:54: We have these problems if economics is focused and dominated by one understanding... new classical mainstream economics and other paradigms have been marginalized through the last decade.

00:39:08: So we also had kind of a different economic thinking in there, also in economics.

00:39:13: to your PhD after possibilities at least several universities some universes is to choose all those subjects like ecological economics feminist economics institutional economics some axis political economics kids and economics.

00:39:27: but these subjects really I have been marginalized through the last years, they would provide a fuller picture.

00:39:35: But introductory courses do not provide you with this fuller pictures and then you end up with that very narrow understanding of.

00:39:42: this narrow understanding is impactful on different levels especially in political debates.

00:39:48: maybe to follow-up Because I think the mainstream would now argue that they are not doing new classical economics, right?

00:39:54: They have experienced this empirical turn.

00:39:57: So using a lot of data and saying okay we're not tied to this dog nor paradigm closely but on one hand these assumptions around models so it's completely free after And on the other hand, of course.

00:40:10: The methods are still super constricted now if you go ahead and... Of course it makes a difference right?

00:40:16: If we don't have to experience this diverse range of people in policy but also like would try To solve the current challenges with very constrictive toolbox of method which is okay.

00:40:28: We need data for that Analyze It But there's no nuance For different ways to look at problems.

00:40:35: That'a huge problem For example, for sociological transformation where we need to rethink things or have different concepts of different visions and cannot just concentrate on data score assessment with our analytical methods.

00:40:49: As you were both talking there I was thinking about the need to have these different perspectives.

00:40:53: so as you said Geoff maybe some people get to the PhD level when they can.

00:40:57: Maybe a few institutions take these different paths, but they have to go through everything.

00:41:04: And so it's very small minority that the people making political decisions and even like economists in government.

00:41:09: So this is what I find quite striking about These numbers of just come out from.

00:41:12: I think yes as I'm your little thing tank is two fiscal studies But i think their numbers are probably quite accurate.

00:41:17: and listen to someone like Gary Stevens or things this British former trader, who's very critical of economics as well.

00:41:25: Traders are earning millions right?

00:41:27: So you have this issue where if these economic degrees that kind of training people to become bankers but some people will then go in they won't take that route.

00:41:35: But there'll be indoctrination.

00:41:37: They wouldn't have been the very limited number actually do question it, then they'll have the motivation and stamina to stick with them in trying a different path.

00:41:47: They will be the ones making decisions.

00:41:49: as you mentioned also these ecological implications are not doing much for climate.

00:41:53: I think this is really closely related to economic knowledge.

00:41:58: production works.

00:41:59: so there's been several studies analysing or showing whether any kind of Research related to climate change is also ending up in top economic journals and economics has really just been very hierarchical structures that they believe in rankings.

00:42:21: You do everything you get the first places in rankings of this ranking.

00:42:24: logic is really quite strongly, embedded in this really understanding of being an economist.

00:42:31: We also did some research and there is strong image of Frankings economics, believing the numbers.

00:42:37: that's a lot to do with the economic discipline as well.

00:42:40: so looking at these top economic journals we find over twenty years hardly any engagement or any kind debates on climate change in the top economic channels.

00:42:51: So you found twice three times more papers focusing on basketball games than on climate change in top economic publications and this is really weird.

00:43:01: And we did a kind of follow-up study now where were also looked at the presentations off the annual conferences after American economic institutions, they are still... Also in last years although had it kind over mobile price for climate economics with William Nothouse.

00:43:18: The issue of climate on any kind of sociological transformation processes is hardly debated in economics.

00:43:26: And this is really surprising, peculiar, idiosyncratic.

00:43:30: that you have a discipline... which somehow analyzes the way they economy works.

00:43:36: and now we have different multiple poli crisis disruptions on economic level for sure.

00:43:43: And there is to be, in which has a lot do with this socio-ecologically transformation discourse.

00:43:48: so how should we provide?

00:43:52: Wooden services for all people within planetary boundaries.

00:43:56: This says a lot to do with production structures good consumption structures and then it's been could provide a lot on these questions, does hardly provide any research in this.

00:44:08: And this is really real problem.

00:44:10: then also not only at the scientific level but if you still believe that economists has kind of a performance with political and societal impact... ...then it's really huge problem!

00:44:21: I want to just pick up from as well i think both to this social ecological transformation or this transformation into economies you know, centered around meeting our needs and within the plan as your boundaries are not just growth at all costs.

00:44:36: It gets us into this almost like I think nor baits in terms of a double bind.

00:44:40: so here on one hand if we need to grow there's no other way right because that is what all models say in the mainstream.

00:44:48: So everyone sitting with their mainstream paradigm which has most decision makers and economists will see it.

00:44:53: If they come up with something else They'll say well prove it What kind.

00:44:59: There's so little effort being put into that.

00:45:01: Like you say, it really should be the main thing we're talking about and instead... It is this thing on the fringe where they've got to fight for funding and I don't want to actually diminish it but there are a lot of fantastic work been done!

00:45:13: And I'm amazed at what has been done given the fact that so little funding was there or two resources were put in that direction.

00:45:23: that is becoming, I feel like it's untenable.

00:45:26: And we've also seen the same right now with this debate around wealth taxes.

00:45:30: there has been a lot of work done by Gabrielle Zuckman and Thomas Piketty but even they were bracing up all in their debate on the UK and mainstream are saying how would this be implemented to practice?

00:45:40: Now wait a minute step back!

00:45:42: Given such an issue why do not already have a thousand papers on this which show how it could be implemented into practice?

00:45:50: isn't that the job of economics calculations.

00:45:54: We have this empirical turn, what is your empirical data?

00:45:57: Anyway I could go on with my rant there but i think it's important that we do also point out like... It's not okay for the mainstream to say well we don't think this would work.

00:46:06: if you've even tried and maybe It's also in the interest of time.

00:46:13: I want to take a little bit of space and talk about your institute as well, it is an Institute for the Comprehensive Analysis of the Economy.

00:46:18: so you are trying look at the economy As that system within society, within ecology ,within living world.

00:46:25: we talked before how it was set up following financial crisis.

00:46:28: We've talked a lot more about what you're working on which might be relevant from our listeners but i'd also interested know How does this sit with the broader university?

00:46:41: What is economics like at Johannes Keppler University in Linz?

00:46:47: Can you talk to your relations with the university, can students learn what they're working on.

00:46:53: Yes or maybe that history of an institute was really closely related to the financial crisis and seeing this non-reaction of economics as a big problem from beginning on funded externally And it's still very early dependent on external funding, some third-party funding since it has no or long time not really found its way and then gives me a structure of the university.

00:47:18: to put it friendly.

00:47:19: And so we are very much dependent on this third-party funding, but throughout the last years we were quite successful in the third party funding and this is kind of a success story also that we were able to hold these institutional structures at low level Also through second institute as well as ecological transformation net.

00:47:38: So with these two institutions now We have they're small But still placed like the Johannes Kepler University part of the Social Sciences Institute, many of this department.

00:47:51: And therefore we from beginning on have been and still are kind of a heterodox outsider, pretty big economy's outsider not that much involved in teaching because it is also kind of our balance within the university.

00:48:08: but there few courses on critical economics or political economics so also district economic thought then held by people researchers.

00:48:18: But our main focus is on research and their perspective.

00:48:23: It's very much focusing also, as you mentioned... ...on wealth inequality and what is wealth and income inequality.

00:48:30: Also these critical perspectives of power balances within capitalism.

00:48:34: And then this huge new topic of socio-ecological transformation which now one of the main research programs I think quite successful on this research strand.

00:48:47: This university system is a very long institutional struggle we are involved in since we're still alive, it's kind of for success

00:48:59: to the institute.

00:48:59: there has been some pushback from the mainstream Institute but now i think its also changing because maybe after empirical turn like that they don't perceive as a threat anymore.

00:49:13: The existence of the institute has been questioned, right?

00:49:15: So why do we need it.

00:49:17: And not only by economics but actually also other disciplines.

00:49:20: because what would you is like with work rather interdisciplinary?

00:49:24: so what economics?

00:49:25: and in this social science broadly I'd say that they don't look to the other social sciences and i think thats like a merit for our region.

00:49:32: What will be doing is looking at sociology or political sciences philosophy and whats happening there.

00:49:37: try to incorporate because we think of the economy as being embedded in society, right?

00:49:42: We also have to look at the other disciplines.

00:49:44: But I mean that's how the academic system works is like those academic or disciplinary silos and it not just very economics but for the others on disciplines And i think now this socio-ecological transformation lab has been a huge success to actually institutionalize part of these research that is interdisciplinarity and to say that this has place here.

00:50:08: So research wise, of course that's where we provide stuff.

00:50:12: That is not done right?

00:50:13: We also focus on for example feminist research or feminist economics when you look at okay what's actually a position?

00:50:19: women and gender but we're looking to get the media doing so like kind of bridging gaps in how do these narratives enter?

00:50:28: most importantly I think it's important just stop with your research.

00:50:33: How can we communicate to other people that are not in academia, what they're doing and researching?

00:50:38: And kind of trying to influence the narratives out there.

00:50:42: We have this new science communication platform which is Compas.org where we publish our research in an understandable way.

00:50:54: to students actually, and although only the amount of teaching that we're doing is limited.

00:51:02: We have reading circles.

00:51:03: so try provide those students again with new material they want to learn about which isn't covered in their curricula And I think also see some successes because there are now some students interested in thinking different alternatives.

00:51:18: So i think it's super important that demand also from the student side, but then us like covering kind of supplies.

00:51:25: What's so super important?

00:51:26: coming back to this whole topic competition in academia and those on economics I think we change system by example because they way will live with.

00:51:36: our institute is trying really being a great cooperative rather than competitive And therefore needling.

00:51:42: here for example We do have lot women studying or also doing the PhDs and working.

00:51:47: So I think this can be a way to change perspective on how academic knowledge production has to work, yeah?

00:51:55: And just provide an alternative for that.

00:51:58: Wonderful!

00:51:58: Hey...I had couple of final questions in mind.

00:52:01: Feel free take which you want.

00:52:03: one would be what else do like happen Like talking with lots different people mainly economists but other people in movement.

00:52:11: What can other people do?

00:52:13: As I mentioned, what part of my theory have changed?

00:52:19: is that more people need to understand this as an issue.

00:52:22: That it's not enough to be trying a campaign for specific issues because whether its a wealth tax or a more ambitious climate policy economics are really standing in the way.

00:52:32: Is there anything you think others could be doing and if we had any feedback on our project Highlight or threats that we could follow?

00:52:42: now is the time to tell me.

00:52:44: I think on this inequality lens you will mention, in a really weird situation and it has a lot of work with other economy works.

00:52:53: so we have a wealth inequality worldwide but also in Austria which is ridiculously high.

00:53:01: This isn't only an economic problem for sure But this is also a lot of societal implications, ecological invitations.

00:53:11: Also the greenhouse gas emissions related to consumption are very rich people that skyrocketing higher than average consumption patterns.

00:53:22: but we see these huge inter-linguages between economic super wealthy elites and political power.

00:53:31: In the US it's quite easy to see but also in other contexts, national context and also Austria.

00:53:39: And this is really a huge problem.

00:53:40: so we are not really touching upon these inequality or wealth inequality problems although we have severe crisis of multiple disruptions taking place occurring at the same time.

00:53:53: they're strong focus on wealth inequalities indeed not only important.

00:54:00: There's no other possibility than really engaging with this inequality issue.

00:54:05: And then there are several issues connected to these and the ecological side for sure is most dominant, but we also saw a strange vanishing of these.

00:54:16: Also maybe these capitalist friendly green capitalism narratives?

00:54:20: These rather moderate approaches somehow disappeared or not that strong anymore... by far not those radical approaches of deep growth or eco-socialism, or whatever.

00:54:35: Even Donald economics are really pushed back and very strongly pushed back by dominant capital fractions in interest groups.

00:54:43: This is a huge program talking much more about these inequalities that we somehow can no longer afford.

00:54:54: this inequality on an economical scale on a political scale, on an ecological scales.

00:55:00: I think this is really core of the problem and how capitalism at that moment works.

00:55:06: Really somehow securing priorities in interest for very small fraction of people.

00:55:15: Global land on the national scale?

00:55:18: Yeah... On this issue like people focusing on different you know... desperate right initiatives and stuff i think that it can just be really overwhelming to think of the system as a whole.

00:55:30: let me take my initial motivation for doing economics like.

00:55:34: I have no clue how to end world hunger although not like twelve years in this business, so we kind of need on this comes from feminist economic or feminist discipline.

00:55:46: maybe start doing the revolution in behaving in non-capitalist ways and to just focus on community, on cooperation.

00:55:54: And really living these things and also finding joy in like living in this system which actually tries work against us right?

00:56:01: But I think that you're doing a wonderful job of already bringing those thing together as it is.

00:56:09: And regarding the loose threads or maybe something that you can look at, and I've already covered this.

00:56:14: You have it in your flow chart diagram to really also look on the academic system of how is set up right?

00:56:23: And actually economics isn't like floating free air but it's also in a system.

00:56:29: You can also talk to that on how this contributes.

00:56:32: And not just, you know, I can answer the other social sciences contributing but there's no much talk about alternatives or revolution kind of.

00:56:41: Thank-you!

00:56:42: Lots to follow up and well thank you both so much for your time.

00:56:45: it was really a pleasure to meet you.

00:56:47: um i hope we'll maybe meet live at some point in future.

00:56:50: thanks for all that you're doing.

00:56:52: Thanks for your great work.

00:56:53: It's really hugely important to have this somewhat interfere between these weird academic system and trying to change things outside, very much outside academia.

00:57:03: also looking at this into relations is really great.

00:57:07: Thank you!

00:57:08: Yeah thank you so much having us represented.

00:57:10: I completely agree.

00:57:12: it was brilliant what we are doing.

00:57:14: all the best in future.

00:57:19: You've been listening to Invisible Handcuffs, Unchaining Economics hosted by me Katie Shields with Music Art and Production by Philip Melchers.

00:57:27: If you enjoyed this episode please consider liking us on YouTube or your favourite podcasting platform and subscribing our website at invisiblehandcuffs.com where you can also find the show notes for more about The Project!

00:57:40: With that thank-you.