Episode 06: How Eurocentrism in economics locks women and the Global South in crisis with Bhumika Muchhala

00:00:00: Looking at the whole of the global south, debt servicing amounts to twice that of education spending and nine point five times that of health spending.

00:00:10: Thirteen point-five times that social protection spending.

00:00:14: And for a small group of countries reporting climate spending in their UNFCCC The UN Framework Convention on Climate Change The nationally determined Contributions Debt Servicing is thirty two times as high as climate Spending.

00:00:28: So every dollar that goes into repaying foreign creditors is a dollar not spent on health, on education social protection and climate.

00:00:37: So debt is about development.

00:00:39: you cannot separate debts from life right?

00:00:42: And we're not even talking about the gendered and racial impacts of sovereign debt

00:00:52: Those things.

00:00:52: so when one thing changes

00:00:54: another change.

00:01:04: Hello and welcome to Invisible Handcuffs, a podcast that seeks to expose the economic ideology underpinning our crisis.

00:01:10: And explore ways we can free ourselves from its chains.

00:01:13: My name is Katie Shields and I'm a recovering mainstream economist and your host.

00:01:17: Perhaps nowhere are those invisible handcuffs doing more damage right now than in The Global South.

00:01:23: That's my conclusion after talking with this week's distinguished guest, Bomiqa Machala political economist and senior advisor at Third World Network as well as part-time faculty of the New School in New York.

00:01:35: In this in depth conversation, Bomica talked about the problem with Eurocentrism in economics and specifically its impact across much of Latin America Africa Central and Southeast Asia a region commonly termed The Global South but which is home to somewhere between eighty and eighty eight percent.

00:01:55: While the region is vast and varied, countries have one common denominator.

00:01:59: Most are former European colonies.

00:02:01: but while violence and looting of political colonisation may be over, Bamika argues that it has been replaced by economic colonisation no longer imposed by military might but by the ideas and ideologies that prevail in economics textbooks, series models.

00:02:19: And by extension of international trade or financial institutions so critical to global south development.

00:02:26: We talked about one institution In particular The IMF which Bamiqa describes as a kitchen table term.

00:02:32: in the Global South.

00:02:34: Everyone knows it.

00:02:35: few speak of it positively.

00:02:37: Compared with United Nations where it is One Nation One Vote in the IMF.

00:02:41: Global North Countries have eight times the voting power of their counterparts in the global south.

00:02:47: And yet it is in the Global South where the IMF is most prevalent, as a lender of last resort and countries that cannot simply bail out their banks each time a crisis hits.

00:02:56: this global north or Eurocentric dominance shows up an IMF loan policies which come with conditions that cut deep into our country's economic sovereignty often under the guise of market liberalisation or fiscal discipline, concepts whose lineage can be traced back directly to neoliberal economists like Milton Friedman and The Chicago School.

00:03:19: They force austerity on sectors critical development – healthcare education public infrastructure welfare while demanding investability measures such as cuts to labour protections corporate taxes environmental red tape.

00:03:34: In short, the underpin extraction and this so-called unequal exchange which means over the past decades countries in the global south have transferred trillions of cheap resources to the global north.

00:03:47: The injustice is that these crises whether the financial crisis or the current inflation crisis caused by the US invasion These crises often originate elsewhere, but they do more harm in the global side because US and European credit rating agencies operating under that same Eurocentric logic expect countries will start piling on debts to provide such luxuries as basic healthcare or welfare payments.

00:04:15: And thus slash their credit worthiness.

00:04:18: this drives up cost of debt puts countries at risk default forcing them back for another loan.

00:04:24: And thus, what Bumika terms as the vicious debt austerity cycle repeats.

00:04:30: The numbers she shares on debt stress in the global south today are truly shocking with repayments and many countries far outstripping those for healthcare education let alone climate.

00:04:40: yet that's not even the worst part according to Bumica who has spent years studying this issue.

00:04:45: these shock absorbers of this IMF and market imposed austerity or women?

00:04:51: They are the first to lose their jobs, access to critical services like maternity care and of course the ones that have to pick up unpaid care that states can no longer provide.

00:05:02: So we also talk about a need not only for economic justice but epistemic justice –and not just in economics– while heterodox fields such as post-Canadianism, Marxism feminist and ecological economics can offer alternatives to the neoliberal austerity being imposed now on a daily basis in The Global South.

00:05:21: There is a need for what Bamiqa terms border thinking, thinking across and at the edge of disciplines and incorporating other fields from sociology and anthropology into indigenous wisdom.

00:05:31: We end with Bamiqi sharing her view on some possible issues around which we might unite across global north and global south.

00:05:41: Offline, we discussed how the demands of conference panels and in social media to provide short soundbites often preclude the ability to provide sufficient context toward our deeply complex issues.

00:05:55: I've only tried to give a taster here but i do hope you'll listen to the interview

00:05:58: full!

00:05:59: I personally learned so much from this conversation with that please join me in welcoming political economist Bhopika Wachala.

00:06:07: Welcome Bumika to Invisible Handcuffs.

00:06:09: Thank you Katie, it's wonderful to be here!

00:06:12: Yeah thank you so much for joining us.

00:06:14: I'm actually just gonna jump right in.

00:06:16: um great tell me...in your opinion what is wrong with the way economics is taught and practiced today?

00:06:24: So my view..the way economics has started in practice today tends to be a bit of an epistemic straight jacket.

00:06:32: so in other words The body of knowledge that its coming from is very limited.

00:06:38: It's concentrated on one form of economics, there was an economic pluralism that is very much missing.

00:06:47: I would situate this in knowledge power complex that Foucault talked about In the knowledge constructed with attention to power relations and a genealogy that reduces systems of thought.

00:07:10: And a starting point is to recognize, that neoclassical economics and in fact neoliberal economic thinking idea of economics based on supply and demand, quantitative methodologies.

00:07:32: And it really has an origin in the European context of supply side economics that you know I have characteristics of linearity Eurocentric modernity technological superiority

00:07:50: um...and

00:07:52: oftentimes intentionally even obscures, marginalises, erases.

00:07:58: Neglects a conscious engagement with a pluralism of economic knowledge methods and practice.

00:08:06: so for example you know we have feminist economics an ecological economics We have Keynesian and post-Keynesian economics economics.

00:08:19: So where neoclassical economic theory will say that societies are made up of rational and selfish individuals, they concentrate on their preferences.

00:08:29: risk is calculable.

00:08:31: it is mathematically determined that choices exchange in consumption all the most important determinants And at free market we'll just automatically naturally almost self correct inefficiencies, right?

00:08:50: So what would heterodox such as feminist and development and Keynesian economics say?

00:08:56: well they will say different things but you know maybe we'd pay attention to the fact that world is complex and uncertain.

00:09:05: That societies are composed of unequal structures stratified on gender in class.

00:09:12: say.

00:09:12: feminist economics would say, well social reproduction is part of the economy.

00:09:16: The care and informal and reproductive economies that sustain and generate human labor... ...that sustain & generate life!

00:09:27: So you know Keynesian economics will say You must use more active fiscal policy or counter-cyclical fiscal policies to redistribute wealth.

00:09:38: Development Economics might say We need to diversify economies away from the kind of singular extraction enclaves that in vast parts of global south or developing countries, economies are not diversified.

00:09:57: in large measure due to the historical legacy of colonialism, where you know several centuries of colonial rule have created plantation economies or extraction economies rooted in entire countries being dependent on mining.

00:10:16: Or cash crops which naturally because of the economics terms of trade has lower revenue attached too you know, primary commodities and natural resources from rubber and timber to coffee and cacao to fruits and vegetables cut flowers.

00:10:37: And very labor-intensive low wage exploitative export processing zone for so called sweatshop labor.

00:10:49: So the sort of value chain and production chain matters, this matters to economics.

00:10:56: This is what determines job creation.

00:10:59: It's what determines a diversity of economic structures whether in the global south where their economies are dominated by multinational corporations or whether there are enough endogenous firms, endogenous and local businesses.

00:11:14: Does an economy support small-and medium enterprises or is it completely dependent on multinationals?

00:11:21: So these are sort of the questions that we would want to ask if we make economics relevant for the vast majority of people in places in the world.

00:11:32: so as might be obvious I come from a global south lens.

00:11:37: I am a development economist.

00:11:39: I focus on feminist political economics from the global south lens, so i do really orient and ground questions of economics within for-and about the Global South which is not separate from the questions relevant to advanced industrial economies but are differentiated.

00:12:07: It has a differentiated strand.

00:12:09: But in essence, you know all economies are made up of human society.

00:12:16: So the questions are in many ways grounded in a certain degree of shared universal realities.

00:12:23: Okay Thank You for that amazing very wide-reaching intro.

00:12:29: so I think there's some any things That i'd like to pick upon and also get where you came into this and the type of economics that your practicement may be.

00:12:39: Just if I can summarise a few points, then we could maybe drill down little bit.

00:12:44: so... You're talking about the fact that this need for a differentiated lens.

00:12:48: So, the economics we have today and also part of what research is doing in which we are trying to highlight with our project... ...is having this very homogenous economic which has no tethering into history!

00:13:01: All economies seem to be the same.

00:13:04: there you can trade or there's no colonial legacies There aren't any power differentials but these things really matter.

00:13:12: Maybe if pick up a little bit then on the fact that this is the kind of economics that has been practiced in most institutions around the world, and particularly our global institutions.

00:13:25: So like the IMF, The World Bank which are particularly influential I would say for the development paths of countries from the Global South and the Global North as well but it's particularly in the Global south you mentioned where your focusing can How this manifests, what are some of the implications... ...of this neoclassical or neoliberal economic lens that is kind of projected onto these economies?

00:13:55: Or through these major institutions.

00:13:59: Yes absolutely thank you for that question Katie.

00:14:02: it's absolutely on point.

00:14:05: I think its necessary to ground this analysis of the problem of neoclassical economics for the global south within a historical reality, with an historical and political context.

00:14:20: And I think i'll focus on two aspects that have unequal exchange in that international financial subordination to just flesh out how neoliberal and neoclasical economics through the genealogy of The Chicago School of Economics takes shape.

00:14:38: So I think that, though...the first starting point if i may is to really go into the advent of neoliberalism To understand how global inequalities are shaped.

00:14:51: so Neoliberalism You know it's a very coherent political and economic construction.

00:15:02: you Know there popular understanding that it was created or really came about during the dead crises of the nineteen eighties, during the Reagan Thatcher era beginning in late nineteen seventies.

00:15:18: but a lot of literature in international political economy and global governance really situates the origin of neoliberalism, In The Geography Of The Western Europe during the interwar period of the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties.

00:15:32: And it was During This Inter-War Era That A Movement Toward The Creation And The Governance Of Institutions Insued In Very Specific An Intentional Manor In Which States are to ensconce and facilitate markets through the creation of universal rules, norms and legal protections.

00:15:53: So it is not the shrinking off the state but rather that orientation –the gaze-of the State towards facilitating or protecting their market.

00:16:02: so its this sort a starting point.

00:16:05: in context for the interwar era there was an There was an awareness that the market would not naturally conjure up conditions for its flourishing, but it would require a re-engineering of this state in order to guarantee success.

00:16:22: Its most important participants at that time emerging fast were modern corporations and large institutional banks, that there was an understanding the state would have to support these big banks and corporations.

00:16:38: And you know it was an elite cadre of experts that envisioned the global economy as a unitarian wired circuitry managed by sort of singular marketplace ethos...and this marketplace ethose is really what was institutionally then established through The Bretton Woods Conference in culmination of that interwar period.

00:17:02: In the decades after, you know starting in the late fifties and sixties into the seventies The Chicago School Of Economics it congealed itself to a coherent economic school.

00:17:15: And the Chicago School of Economics often times associated with the neoclassical economic canon is really rooted in a defining principle, and I think it's important to clarify this defining principle before really fleshing out the inequality that ensues.

00:17:32: And this defining principal is a belief of freedom as its iconic spokesperson Milton Friedman really argued that The Freedom Of Markets and Freedom Of Choice Is Fundamental And Was Placed At An Apex Subsuming equality of distribution and outcome, so there was a coherent shift from distribution an outcome.

00:17:58: to choice and markets.

00:18:00: And it was underpinned on this idea that the free market is in most efficient means of organizing resources, welfare.

00:18:07: government intervention in economic policymaking Is always suspicious?

00:18:12: So This Was The Start Of That kind of vilification at the public sector right as a problem rather than part of solution.

00:18:20: but really put forward quantitative theory.

00:18:23: money or what's called monetarism you know, it says in other words that excess money representing demand will always and inevitably produce inflation.

00:18:33: So targeting this inflation became really almost a totalizing project.

00:18:41: And, you know, Friedman had identified he had articulated in his publications in nineteen sixty-two that there are two ways of coordinating the economic activities on people.

00:18:51: one is direct use force or coercion technique army and state.

00:18:59: And I think that refers also to the eras of, you know these totalitarian and fascist dictatorships.

00:19:07: The history of colonialism in the technique of military army.

00:19:12: but then he said we now need to shift into the voluntary cooperation of individuals.

00:19:20: And therein began this ideological project aimed at reifying free market within a culture of liberalism so that we cannot separate our neoclassical economics from also social cultures and its ideas, norms.

00:19:39: Then we get into how we come to a place of unequal exchange.

00:19:45: And this is where the dependency economists and world system theorists from the global south, actually in decade after Milton Friedman published much of his work In the decade of the nineteen seventies We have Samir Amin, Giovanni Origi and Emmanuel Wallerstein among many others, from across the global south but also North America and Europe.

00:20:13: And they argued that... unequal exchange is what determines the world economy, that we have extractive flows that are automatized or just functioned on the multiplicity of registers from monetary to labor to gender and involve historical and ongoing forms of appropriation.

00:20:36: They also really kind of located this.

00:20:39: unequal exchanges facilitated through unequal currency hierarchy, as well as the international division of labor.

00:20:48: So this was an attempt to really situate what is actually happening on a world scale?

00:20:54: Right so you have maybe not response but other side in economic argument that shifts away from individuals and choices production and distribution, right?

00:21:11: So you really have this different register.

00:21:14: And they argue that

00:21:16: price

00:21:17: suppression in the global south enacted by the currency hierarchy means at the South must export many more units of labor and resources than it imports to achieve a monetary balance of trade.

00:21:30: In other words there's constant transfer from the south to the north, developing the latter impoverishing the former.

00:21:43: This is what led to the publications of Walter Rodney in the nineteen seventies The development or underdevelopment.

00:21:50: this is what lead to these sort ideas how rich world stays and gets richer How poverty is maintained And the implication Is that there is a hidden transfer of value from the south to the north, From the periphery to the core.

00:22:09: You know really I think this was kind of undermined or There was a suppression of this sort of research and analysis.

00:22:17: And it's really been the last ten to fifteen years that researchers have come out with A resurgence.

00:22:23: We now see a resurgence talking and thinking about dependency economics, that it's not irrelevant.

00:22:30: It's not dead.

00:22:31: in fact there has been so much rich thinking an analysis That actually explains So much of our economic realities on a global scale.

00:22:41: today.

00:22:42: now researchers have talked about how Rich countries by large former colonizers have drained one hundred fifty-two trillion from the global south between nineteen sixty and twenty fifteen.

00:22:55: So these are recent times.

00:22:57: This isn't the, you know, early twentieth century it's nineteen sixty to twenty fifteen and they've outlined how this is happening through tax evasion by multinational corporations.

00:23:10: It happens though interest rates that developing countries pay creditors on debt financing which are on average three-to five times higher than the cost of capital for rich countries because of a great risk based on the singular criterion of GDP, not in terms of economic dynamism.

00:23:31: Not in terms GDP.

00:23:47: And this is primarily executed by the epistemic community of international financial markets, by enlarged government and by unelected private unaccountable actors such as credit rating agencies work on behalf investment firms, they do not work on behalf of any nation or government.

00:24:11: They are not held accountable...they have been critiqued for I think a long time now for their methodological biases.

00:24:19: but in essence we have a financial system that is very intentionally designed and this is where i would like to just conclude on the essential process.

00:24:34: many in the critical international political economy field term, International Financial Subordination.

00:24:41: So what do we mean by international financial subordination?

00:24:43: Sounds like a mouthful.

00:24:45: essentially is forms of penalization domination and hierarchy expressed in through money and finance And the effects are that of penalizing developing nations disproportionately.

00:25:01: so when Whatever there's an exogenous shock, whether it is COVID or inflation.

00:25:09: Whether its supply-side shocks and climate disaster will affect developing nations disproportionately.

00:25:19: their cost of capital will go higher reverse from developing nations back into the safe haven, assets of US dollar or other reserve currencies.

00:25:34: And we see this repeatedly!

00:25:38: We've seen it with COVID and the monetary tightening done by the US Federal Reserve in two thousand twenty-two.

00:25:46: So why is that so critical?

00:25:49: It's critical because this financial subordination facilitates the geographical transfer value across world markets.

00:25:58: The drain I was talking about, the financial extraction of a hundred and fifty-two trillion...the number isn't as important as that fact that vast sums of financial and monetary resources are being siphoned systematically without territorial presence or military coercion is done embedded through the arrangement of political and economic mechanisms in the international monetary and financial system.

00:26:28: So specifically, The Free Movement Of Capital.

00:26:32: very few countries dare to enact capital account regulation or in other words, capital controls To regulate that panic exit.

00:26:40: the money flows of capital like brush out developing nations currency crises and cost of living crisis.

00:26:50: when capital flows out.

00:26:52: The currency immediately depreciates, so real wages are sliced into a fraction of its value.

00:27:00: the day before then you have economic contraction which falls disproportionately on women!

00:27:06: So these sort of financial and economic norms and standards-the free movement of capital US dollar hegemony, which creates that need to accumulate foreign exchange reserves in reserve currencies at the expense of using those that foreign money for actual development needs or national needs.

00:27:28: It also means maintaining low inflation levels and low fiscal deficit targets otherwise known as macroprudential financial norms fiscal discipline.

00:27:40: This is the metrics that nations are judged on when their risk rating is assessed by rating agencies, and it also means other things that may be not so monetary such as regulatory environment, the regulatory regimes of taxation environments in labor.

00:28:00: we know there's a race to.

00:28:02: There's a race to the bottom in deregulating environmental protections, public interest laws, labor laws.

00:28:10: To attract investment.

00:28:13: and this is where I think that theoretical aspect comes into play Where critical theorists illustrate how their narratives, imaginaries, representations knowledges technologies to construct global south as investment destinations to construct the South as investable.

00:28:35: This investability doesn't just come through for the last forty years of neoliberalism, it is embedded in a long jurei and history.

00:28:52: Yeah, thank you.

00:28:53: There's so many elements that I wanted to pick up on as you were talking about.

00:28:57: maybe just a couple of quick short reflections because you mentioned we're seeing a resurgence now in more critical whether it is critical development studies bringing this topic off of decolonising economics.

00:29:13: I studied Development Economics at university.

00:29:16: I don't think i studied the development economics that you're describing or that you've engaging with, right?

00:29:22: So it was very much about countries need to open themselves up to trade comparative advantage fiscal discipline as you said make yourself investable and even went on then to work in this kind of area where we were doing exactly that.

00:29:35: We were ranking countries based on investability.

00:29:38: so do have weak trade unions low taxes ability to move money in and out.

00:29:44: As you said, no capital controls.

00:29:45: but maybe just also come back at a couple of those things can explain what the key mechanisms are?

00:29:54: You mentioned as well more recently what has happened.

00:30:00: actually many countries now getting further into debt because of pandemics.

00:30:05: they're responding I guess kind But also in some cases, rules that are imposed on them through likes of the IMF.

00:30:16: So can you talk a little bit more about what those mechanisms are?

00:30:20: Thank you for your question Katie.

00:30:22: It's an absolutely relevant follow-up to fleshing out specific mechanisms.

00:30:29: I think it is important to contextualise debt.

00:30:33: just very briefly, although it's a huge topic and its really center in the global economy.

00:30:41: I think we need to understand debt as perhaps the fulcrum of inequality on the global scale.

00:30:54: Sovereign Debt is systematically reproduced by what I had fleshed out in terms of the international monetary and financial architecture.

00:31:06: Yes, debt has skyrocketed in the current era.

00:31:12: In fact since the pandemic there has been a historical increase in debts.

00:31:19: this has taken shape in many ways but i think one of Sharp rise in debt has been the five-fold increase of private creditors, right?

00:31:32: There's been a massive increase on private crediters from the global financial crisis.

00:31:37: In two thousand seven and eight.

00:31:39: so you know just since the Global Financial Crisis debt payments to creditors have skyrocketed.

00:31:46: um...in two thousand twenty two aggregate debt in the developing world stood at a fifty-year high, so it was still that generational high.

00:31:54: In middle income countries even, sovereign debt was at a thirty year peak and sixty percent of low-income countries or in other words the poorest countries in the world were in debt distress and high risk of death.

00:32:06: So you know...you saw a wave of defaults.

00:32:09: Sri Lanka defaulted on fifty-one billion of debt in two thousand twenty-two.

00:32:13: In two thousand and twenty three Ghana suspended external debt payments.

00:32:17: that was followed by Lebanon, Suriname, Ukraine and Zambia.

00:32:21: And the rise in debt servicing across the south has a direct you know correlation to the decrease in public expenditure and Public investments including climate investment across the global South.

00:32:33: so You know we need to look at in relation to its development impacts, the cost of debt servicing.

00:32:45: In a two thousand twenty-four debt servicings amounted approximately twenty five percent total government spending across all developing countries and African continent.

00:32:58: that servicing or repaying their debts was tantamount to approximately thirty eight percent total government revenue for an average across the African continent.

00:33:14: Looking at a whole of the global south, debt servicing amounts to twice that of education spending and nine point five times that of health.

00:33:29: And for the small group of countries reporting climate spending in their UNFCCC, the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change.

00:33:38: The nationally determined contributions debt servicing is thirty two times as high as climate funding.

00:33:44: So every dollar that goes into repaying foreign creditors on health, on education social protection and climate.

00:33:53: So debt is about development.

00:33:55: you cannot separate debts from life right?

00:33:58: And we're not even talking about the gendered and racial impacts of sovereign debt.

00:34:04: so I think it's important to situate that here now.

00:34:09: when sovereign states restructure their debt whether through G-twenty process or IMF they are required they are required by creditors to have an IMF loan in place.

00:34:25: So a sovereign state that is debt distressed cannot even begin the dialogue with the creditor committees, you have The Paris Club of Creditor Committee which represents nation official creditors or state creditors but then you have Bond Holder Committees which represent private creditors.

00:34:43: And these discussions on restructuring the debt cannot even begin without having an IMF loan in place.

00:34:50: Now, The International Monetary Fund is the world's lender of last resort and it is a single lender of less resort due to political choices that have very intentionally prevented more than one lender of last resort.

00:35:09: There were many attempts in the past, for example during Asian financial crisis of nineteen ninety seven nineteen ninety eight where Japan had proposed an asian monetary fund you know to complement the IMF's role was lender of a last resort.

00:35:22: this was blocked by US treasury.

00:35:26: just really clarify that international monetary funds is only place for the financial assistance for debt distress sovereign state, which is inherent to the structure of the world economy.

00:35:40: Right?

00:35:40: The differentiated production structures and that... And-and the currency hierarchy.

00:35:45: so the developing world is going to have chronic balance of payments problems because the value of its exports and it's labor are so much lower than the nations that it imports from in the nation that it trades with.

00:36:01: right.

00:36:02: So the role of The International Monetary Fund is paramount in the global south.

00:36:08: You know, therein Is the irony that the average person In uh United States and Western Europe may not have heard Of The international monetary fund.

00:36:15: but just about any layperson In the global South has Heard of The international Monetary fund.

00:36:20: It's in the papers it's talked About.

00:36:23: its a kitchen term.

00:36:24: Its A Kitchen word.

00:36:26: so The monetary fund Uh The International monetary fund loans are historically conditioned on austerity measures, or so-called fiscal consolidation measures.

00:36:38: These fiscal consolidation measure for example are regressive taxation on goods and services.

00:36:44: Regressive taxation means low income communities will pay disproportionately more For them.

00:36:51: You have public sector wage cuts in expenditure reduction.

00:36:54: So you have all these budget cuts in health education social protection?

00:37:00: That servicing is eating out of the national, you know development budget.

00:37:05: But then austerity measures mandate these cuts in order to ensure that there will be a continuation and an honoring of debt servicing.

00:37:16: You also have privatization Of state-owned enterprises And local firms.

00:37:21: We have labor market flexibilization measures The race to the bottom, I was mentioning on labor standards and of course a maintaining of sound finance or the macro potential norms of inflation targeting in low fiscal deficits.

00:37:38: But you also have an increase of natural resource extraction And then increased in de-regulation government contracts especially infrastructure.

00:37:49: all of this to essentially undergird that neoliberal zeitgeist of liberalization, privatization deregulation.

00:37:58: I think it's important also contextualize that austerity has become a norm.

00:38:03: It is not simply driven through IMF loan agreements.

00:38:08: Essentially its becomes naturalized global economic system.

00:38:14: Austerity affects both rich countries and poor countries, it has become essentially the economic consensus.

00:38:23: so you know that research points to fact.

00:38:27: but on a geographic scale austerity effects eighty five percent of world population in post pandemic years.

00:38:36: But here's the discernment with differentiation.

00:38:40: Eighty-five percent of the world population, but eighty per cent of affected populations are in developing countries across the Middle East and North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, South and East Asia.

00:38:50: The Pacific, small island developing countries Latin America and the Caribbean to really name their regions right?

00:38:58: And it doesn't seem matter that you have streams of empirical data based evidence from academics from statisticians, from UN agencies on think tanks that really flesh out the real estate that austerity creates inequality.

00:39:16: Fiscal consolidation measures are interrelated with an increase in the gene coefficient of fiscal consolidation and economic austerity Constrain the vitality, the dynamism.

00:39:35: The flourishing of real economy of employment and production of exchange of dynamism or human development social development that exacerbates the debt distress.

00:39:50: So this is essentially what has been termed by many in international political economy, by activists and advocates and campaigners as the so-called Debt Austerity Trap The debt austerity trap...the debt distressed nation you know imposes austerity on its country or people And thereby exacerbating it's debt distress trap in many ways.

00:40:18: Yeah,

00:40:18: and I think what you were saying there about despite all this evidence right?

00:40:24: That's also what we're trying to unpack with the series.

00:40:27: is that why when there was so much evidence... And here i am shocked by these numbers.

00:40:33: it's shocking everywhere.

00:40:35: but if back to what you're talking about, there's so much potential.

00:40:40: There are high levels of unemployment especially US unemployment...there is great resources!

00:40:45: So much work to do why our country has been forced into austerity and as you say then it impacts the most marginalised, most vulnerable and more disproportionately women which I know your theme in.

00:41:00: i'd like We just also, to reinforce for listeners as well.

00:41:06: It comes back to these ideas and maybe it's worth mentioning the IMF that United States appoints the head of the IMf so people in the US might not have heard about but they are basically controlling.

00:41:19: this institution Also has a largest number of votes correct me if I'm wrong on any of those policies And this, I think it's called surveillance.

00:41:30: So the work that is done to look at countries and advise on... It's not just little things but a broad-based group of measures right?

00:41:40: These structural adjustment programmes or whatever loan conditions that countries need implement in order to meet the conditions for their loans which they have to meet otherwise they don't get any other credit.

00:41:49: so these ideas are underpinning them the Neal Liberal Chicago School, kind of now effectively neoclassical economics.

00:42:02: what is taught.

00:42:03: I would like to come back to that but i don't know maybe if we could talk a little bit more specifically on this gendered lens?

00:42:14: And I know you've done quite a lot research.

00:42:19: Yeah, my work really does center on international financial subordination and unequal exchange but within the lens of you know with relevance to feminist political economy and intersectionality.

00:42:34: Just to clarify... The head of the International Monetary Fund is always appointed by the European Union

00:42:43: Okay.

00:42:43: And

00:42:43: the head of The World Bank is always appointed by U.S.

00:42:46: government and it's informally known as the Gentleman's Handshake or the Gentlemen's Agreement that Europe appoints IMF, United States appoints world bank.

00:42:58: however yes the united states has veto voting power so it can veto any decision by the executive board of the IMF which gives you know, the apex of decision-making.

00:43:14: But also in the IMF executive board rich countries or Western European nations and Japan United States Australia New Zealand they hold over half voting power.

00:43:29: for every vote that average person in the industrialized rich country have The average person is only one eighth.

00:43:41: So, in many ways this really shocking degree of disproportionate economic decision-making power is where you can see the material and historical inequality play out which is why for many advocates of global economic justice and for fair governance in the world economy, The United Nations General Assembly is such an important platform because it's one nation-one vote.

00:44:11: It is only international organization that has One Nation-One Vote.

00:44:15: but to move into where we talk about the lens of feminist political economy while were talking what I have termed and written about than many others as well, gendered austerity.

00:44:33: So gendered Austerity... And by the way it's not simply about Gender but its intersectionality.

00:44:38: so we're you know It is about that nexus The crossroads of Gender & Race & Income & Geography.

00:44:47: We say GENDERED AUSTERITY.

00:44:49: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE INTERSECTIONALITY.

00:44:53: women and girls, racialized communities are not only adversely affected by fiscal consolidation or economic austerity measures.

00:45:06: They become the involuntary shock absorbers in a sense that fiscal consolidation measures, austerity measure they already

00:45:17: expect

00:45:18: there will be de facto absorption and also a facilitation of the public services and goods that the state is now not able to provide, this gap will be met by Right?

00:45:41: And this is the key lens of a feminist political economy.

00:45:46: analysis situates.

00:45:47: The social reproduction economy as part of whole economy, it critiques that economic analysis and theorization omits the social-reproduction economy.

00:46:02: It's not just about how the social reproduction care economy provides for buffers the shocks, but it is that human labor and in fact The economic system as a whole Is generated sustained?

00:46:19: And reproduced by social care economy.

00:46:24: right.

00:46:25: so It must be included In the assessment or in the understanding of the economy.

00:46:31: It is not separate.

00:46:32: It is not separate, it's not the hidden iceberg under water holding up production economy.

00:46:41: It IS HIDDEN but part of the economy isn't.

00:46:46: It shouldn' t be under and hidden or invisibleized.

00:46:52: so when we talk about economic systems We're only talking about what we see as the waged in production.

00:47:04: We are not seeing the reproduction, the un-waged.

00:47:07: So that central point of contention is that the underlying organization Of economic social and political systems that prioritize growth That prioritized financial profit Not only neglects or omits social reproduction But it actually expects It's designed on assumption that the care economy will facilitate its profit-making.

00:47:34: So I think that's a shift from just saying, That The Care Economy Will Pick Up The Slack.

00:47:40: It's Saying That There Is An Assumption.

00:47:41: The Care economy Will Subsidize And Facilitate Its Project Of Accumulation Or Its Processes of Accumulations.

00:47:50: So when we talk about gendered austerity, We talked about this triple jeopardy.

00:47:53: The Triple Jeopardy is diminished access to essential services loss of livelihoods and increased unpaid work in time poverty.

00:48:02: so diminished access through essential services.

00:48:04: well these are the budget cuts education, social protection loss of livelihoods.

00:48:09: any economic contraction will result in women being disproportionately affected by job losses.

00:48:15: you know the first to be cut.

00:48:17: The last to be hired.

00:48:19: we know that from so much documentation of the gender wage gap and gender discrimination in labor markets.

00:48:27: but we also know that the increase on paid work-and-time poverty means really critical research during the Asian financial crisis where we could see how women's unpaid work and time poverty, meaning that lack of time.

00:48:43: The depletion there has been fantastic recent work in feminist political economy on women's participation in the labor force is leading to a state of depletion because it doesn't reduce work at home.

00:49:00: It actually adds on and paid work is usually exploitative.

00:49:04: low-wage, unpaid work leads to an overall state of depletion.

00:49:10: so this really what we mean by gendered austerity.

00:49:17: you know, when we talk about the three Rs right?

00:49:20: Three Rs of redistributing the care work.

00:49:26: Of recognizing the carework and over reducing redistribution, recognizing reducing.

00:49:34: I think that there may be a couple more acronyms sort of added onto this but essentially the point is that This Is Not Easily Possible In The Face Of The Cultural, The Legal And The Economic Obstacles.

00:49:48: I Think Also A Last Point That i Do Think It's Important To Mention that often gets omitted even in feminist economics analysis.

00:49:58: And thankfully, it is the anthropologists and sociologists who work on economic systems to really uplift this historical conjuncture where history of social reproduction is rooted into an economic violence against women which characterizes the history of capitalism.

00:50:23: And by economic violence we're also talking about cultural tropes and cultural confines.

00:50:30: So for example, you know almost universally there are binary gender sex tropes or stereotypes steeped into all cultures where women's work is not viewed as labor It's perceived as the natural biological role of woman, an act of love.

00:50:55: Right?

00:50:56: Yeah religious pressures and very hegemonic ideologies universally that reinforce this gender depression And it's bolstered by state action By state laws that restrict women's autonomy That restricts women's inheritance rights property ownership rights and access to education, especially higher education in university education.

00:51:19: As well as gender-based violence the failure to enforce domestic violence and sexual assault laws.

00:51:25: so it's really a larger question of patriarchal structures and practices that have subordinated women historically.

00:51:35: And we look at the advent of industrial capitalism In historical lens where industrial capitalism drew primarily men out of the home and into the factory.

00:51:46: But it made women's work private, confined to the home invisible and devalued right?

00:51:53: And this was a shift from when work was home based farm-based but where woman and man worked at home.

00:52:01: Right!

00:52:02: Maybe there wasn't an equitable sharing.

00:52:05: certainly that was patriarchy.

00:52:07: women's work was not segregated in such an explicit way.

00:52:12: And let us now forget, layered onto these processes and capitalism that racial stratification, racialized inequality divided groups of nations into layering with gender.

00:52:25: so I don't want to forget the fact there are many other kinds of stratifications but just gender.

00:52:31: So we can really situate inequalities as social perforations within the deeper construction of an unequal hierarchy of humanity.

00:52:45: Gender is located in this larger, unequal-hierarchy of humanity.

00:52:49: it's not just a feminist question you know we don't have to I think oftentimes raise some.

00:52:56: gender and class are separated in very superficial ways.

00:53:01: so I think a more historically grounded understanding of power in how it shapes society and knowledge, ideas for labour value production reproduction care well-being is really required.

00:53:22: Thank you this was nice point to bring into the topic.

00:53:27: education.

00:53:27: so its kind exactly that is missing.

00:53:31: So our economics education today just simply doesn't even mention power dynamics, power relations the historical element.

00:53:42: it's completely missing in a historical sense.

00:53:49: and you talk there about what feminist political economy brings.

00:53:54: You mentioned two words.

00:53:55: There are the feminist aspect And also the political economy.

00:53:58: When we were off line, you used a freeze and I said i want you to bring this freeze back in again.

00:54:03: Can you remember

00:54:04: the freeze?

00:54:05: Yeah yeah!

00:54:07: It's very popular sort of proverb almost at this point that economics is simply politics and technical drag.

00:54:15: so

00:54:15: economics are simply politics or technical drag but it's not an objective science.

00:54:21: It's simply not an objective science.

00:54:24: Not in the way that, you know... nuclear physics is or a human anatomy.

00:54:30: and it's NOT physical science!

00:54:32: IT IS A SOCIAL SCIENCE.

00:54:34: And social sciences are constructed of IDEAS AND BELIEVES AND THEORIES THAT ARE SHAPED BY THE POLITICAL INTEREST.

00:54:46: So oftentimes we talk about how based on your objective, you can create an economic analysis.

00:54:57: You've got conservative orthodox economists and a more progressive economist both using econometric modeling to show the argument they are making.

00:55:13: so thereby it is social science that undeniably, inextricably connected to the political ideas.

00:55:21: Well let's just say... The idea is an interest!

00:55:26: To pick up on that and how it then relates to feminist economics in particular And feminist decolonial economics You've written about this In some of your papers This way that it has marginalised.

00:55:38: Just step back for people listening.

00:55:41: Just through problems we're facing Things are getting worse.

00:55:45: Inequality is rising and inequality across genders, it's also

00:55:48: rising."

00:55:49: And this is a really core issue!

00:55:51: Yet the people working on it—and whose voices need to be brought in—are being marginalised by the very science of economics?

00:56:00: Can you talk maybe about how hats that you wear is faculty of the new school in, um...in The United States which has I guess got its own kind of story and it's maybe a bit unique.

00:56:14: Can you talk about your journey into this?

00:56:16: And also what-what you're doing will make the New School perhaps different to other you know, faculties that are working on economics.

00:56:24: Sure just a clarification I'm part-time faculty at the New School and senior advisor and political economist of The Third World Network an independent policy institute.

00:56:36: i think it's important to contextualize um...the historical process of epistemic power.

00:56:44: right certain knowledge systems are uh held superior to others Right?

00:56:54: We teach certain things in the universities and classrooms.

00:56:57: A lot of what is taught, it's about what has been published... a lot of knowledge hasn't been published!

00:57:03: In fact historically a lot knowledges systems are not written down right.

00:57:08: they're oral or everyday life practices.

00:57:13: The question of epistemic injustice isn't just that we have such singularity pedagogy and learning in teaching, that doesn't include pluralism.

00:57:23: But Epistemic Injustice is also about how many knowledge systems from Indigenous communities—from non-Western communities or marginalized communities —from queer communities?

00:57:34: It's not just about geography it's about power invisibility.

00:57:39: There are many Knowledge Systems That Are Simply Not Even Considered Knowledge.

00:57:47: You have many philosophical knowledge systems that are just relegated to esoteric theory or esoterics, philosophies and esoterical spirituality.

00:57:58: They're not considered knowledge.

00:58:00: so even for example say Taoism or Sufiism.

00:58:04: it's not... It is not knowledge!

00:58:06: It cannot be taught with the same rigor as a certain foundational Text of sociology or anthropology.

00:58:18: It's relegated to a spiritual belief system.

00:58:23: So, you know what do we consider knowledge?

00:58:25: You know how do we decolonize knowledge?

00:58:28: How do we bring more justice into epistemology our knowledge making?

00:58:34: because what is seen as knowledge then has power over our ideas, over our cognitive worlds.

00:58:42: Right?

00:58:42: So this sort of where the critical theorists talk about Cognitive Empire and Epistemic Power.

00:58:50: so I've been researching and writing over the last, i would say eight to nine years now on this question of epistemology.

00:58:58: An epistemic delinking really starts with asking can we decolonize our knowledge systems in our understanding of the world within the same genealogy of thought?

00:59:13: And texts that produce the hegemonic forms of knowledge?

00:59:18: so how Do we, how do we de-link?

00:59:21: How do we turn to other ways of knowing right.

00:59:25: So what does this involve?

00:59:29: This epistemic delinking?

00:59:32: So some ideas in brief are geographical historical knowledge.

00:59:37: that would say, hey we need to look at the perspectives of marginalized societies and their voices.

00:59:44: We need to Look At History!

00:59:46: We Need To Historically Contextualize!

00:59:49: We Need To Look How Much Of Our Knowledge Systems Are Rooted In Eurocentricism.

00:59:55: Eurocentricism, not necessarily as specific to Europe but about modernity and Western civilization or this idea that western capitalism in development is the only option.

01:00:08: Is there one reified goal saying hey no it's just one option?

01:00:17: Right?

01:00:17: We need to look at embodied knowledges, embodying knowledge through the folklore and stories.

01:00:24: The ways of living with people in communities that are cast out and rendered invisible by hegemonic knowledge systems.

01:00:32: so here I would really point to indigenous communities and their knowledge system.

01:00:36: you need to looking at border thinking.

01:00:38: this is a term by the decolonial thinker Walter Mignolo who refers border thinking as a continual process of integrating progressive aspects from different locations and time periods.

01:00:53: So this kind of chips away at these easy and simplistic binary of colonial versus modern, western vs non-western.

01:01:02: No!

01:01:03: Border Thinking is about locating the integrity or idea doesn't matter where it's found what time period man woman you know.

01:01:13: White-brown black is really about the integrity of this thinking.

01:01:18: And border thinking also then kind of disturbs or disrupts and it unsettles the sanctity one particular discipline, so even for example... Marxism, border thinking would say what?

01:01:35: Marxism may not be sufficient or it May Not Be Inclusive I'll Say Gender Questions Or Race Questions or Historical Questions.

01:01:47: So we might need to do Border Thinking in that way.

01:01:50: We have To Integrate Different Aspects Right.

01:01:53: so you know also Pluriversality Engaging with the Sites of Forgotten marginalized knowledge systems, and then addressing methodology and pedagogy.

01:02:04: different ways of teaching and research, different ways at publishing.

01:02:07: Different methods with attention to methodology mixed methodology quantitative AND qualitative To recognize the value of qualitative methodologies And what knowledges they can produce that The quantitative may only go so far It may not show many realities & narratives That ONLY THE QUALITATIVE Can really unearth Right?

01:02:32: Yeah

01:02:33: And in this, also to uplift the work and that knowledge of social movements.

01:02:38: That social movement have historically acted In these intersectional border thinking ways.

01:02:45: If you look at the civil rights movement The suffragette movement They...the race justice movement today Decolonization Movement Climate Justice Movement All kinds of economic inclusion movements they do not have a rigid identification of disciplines.

01:03:04: They are naturally and organically transdisciplinary, right?

01:03:10: And intersectional.

01:03:12: so you know one of the questions I sometimes ask is how can natural disasters what by climate change be separated from social and economic inequalities... How could we talk about structures and institutions without also talking about lived realities.

01:03:29: So we need really an entwinement of both, you know knowledge systems And ways of life.

01:03:36: Ways of doing being thinking and seeing May not be in most university context.

01:03:44: it may not be You know possible because a lot of universities often are quite rigid with their disciplinary purity.

01:03:54: And so the interdisciplinarity is a real challenge in the university system.

01:03:59: at The New School, where I do teach if there's a lot more space for interdisciplinary.

01:04:09: however many progressive universities and institutions around the world are facing budget cuts or facing considerable budget cuts not just erosion or changes to their departments, to their programs.

01:04:29: So at the new school we have a restructuring process going on where... Some of the progressive departments and programs are being significantly altered or being significantly disrupted, and harmed.

01:04:44: And this is happening I think across the world but particularly in...I believe in the UK and US where Progressive Departments Are Being Impacted.

01:04:56: It's not surprising given The Political Era Of Authoritarianism We're In Currently.

01:05:01: So This Is Time To Really Start Thinking About ways of pedagogy, thinking research writing outside the university as well.

01:05:13: We must create other homes for knowledge and in fact you had said earlier that You did not learn a lot of this in development economics when you

01:05:23: were

01:05:24: in University.

01:05:24: Well I went to The London School of Economics And I studied Development Economics and Development Studies through my own self-designed and self-initiated work in my PhD process at the new school where I did my PhD, but also independently in my work as a global economic justice advocate.

01:05:51: As policy researcher, as an author.

01:05:55: it's through my initiative and from my own work And...I will openly say that A lot of the processes, learning and transformation in education taking place today are outside university through podcasts such as yours.

01:06:13: Through webinars and panels or virtual plenaries all kinds accessible discussion sites.

01:06:23: so on that note thank you for doing this creating a critical space of conversation.

01:06:31: Thank you, and I'm really conscious of time that there are so many other questions.

01:06:35: That would love to have got too but also think i heard.

01:06:38: if one child in the background?

01:06:40: One your daughter maybe as well... Maybe pick up on a couple things for like two.

01:06:47: closing Maybe I want to just pick up on a couple of things that you said though as well, because we're going to dig into this in future episodes.

01:06:59: We'll be talking specifically also about the neoliberalisation of university right?

01:07:03: Because it's particularly in UK and United States where we are seeing some more progressive ideas into universities.

01:07:15: They're being eroded because of budget cuts, because of rankings.

01:07:19: Because students are loaded with debt and they need jobs that are going to pay the bills... ...and not necessarily going follow studies so needed.

01:07:29: So I fully support what you said there about.

01:07:31: we'll be needing new channels for education And i'm also working on this as well.

01:07:38: You described yourself a scholar activist before as well, kind of offline.

01:07:44: This is an exploration so I don't know where this...this is going to go but i see the need to tackle also the discipline of economics as it is right now in universities because this creation of ideas and hegemony of these ideas are what's behind the decisions that have been made by the IMF governments at the Federal Reserve?

01:08:06: These ideas are ingrained.

01:08:10: I don't know if you have feedback for us, or what do think other people could do?

01:08:14: Whether it's an air project.

01:08:15: Or are there some things that need to happen and perhaps play in this

01:08:25: role?

01:08:26: This is the question at hand of our era!

01:08:30: And

01:08:32: we just look around... There is so much happening.

01:08:36: It's just not happening in very mainstream and highly visible ways, it is on CNN.

01:08:41: It isn't on the front page of The New York Times or BBC Radio or your night telly news.

01:08:48: but there are waves from social movements for economic climate justice to feminist movement decolonizing economics really a new wave of critical thinking in economics, in political science.

01:09:06: You know you have especially out the pandemic at least some critical waves like racial justice.

01:09:14: But there's also been a global momentum on reviving decolonization.

01:09:18: Very explicit and clear understanding that colonisation is not over, it's all-over!

01:09:23: And the decolonisation journey... ...is no affinished tale.

01:09:28: In fact an economic lens in a global scale has an understanding that political decolonising isn't the same as economic decolonised.

01:09:37: The creation of sovereign states when national freedom movements fought for sovereignty, was a political sovereignty not necessarily an economic sovereignty.

01:09:50: And that doesn't mean many parts of the global south especially middle-income countries or the BRICS countries have been able to say from Brazil to China really develop their own economies in very substantial ways.

01:10:08: It's not denying that there has been some creation of middle-class and economic wealth, it is really questioning the distribution then equity... And you know the question of profit for whom?

01:10:26: or wealth for who?

01:10:27: Or development for whom?

01:10:28: Or economic growths you know, where is the wealth of the nation going and what kind of societies are we creating?

01:10:38: What kinds of materials are reproducing.

01:10:42: I think that momentum has to be.

01:10:47: I think it has to scale up in many ways.

01:10:50: Some of the work of the United Nations, in terms of this post-growth and de-growth momentum which have to be differentiated and clarified that you know It would be de growth for rich countries.

01:11:04: For many poor countries there will need to be more dynamic growth And more pathways for inclusive green industrialization and economic diversification.

01:11:17: But you know, I think we do need to advance ways in which to uplift more progressive and just ideas.

01:11:30: You know?

01:11:31: I think globally we see momentum with the idea of affordability.

01:11:37: Affordability connects On an everyday level, it's so relatable.

01:11:45: It is absolutely visceral and tangible And opens the door to the questions of economic policy of economic ideas of economic distribution.

01:11:56: So we must look for more entry points accessible universal Tangible entry point affordability as one climate is another climate affecting All nations everywhere, but of course disproportionately developing countries in the global south.

01:12:15: They are hit disproportionately harder because their infrastructure and poverty and underdevelopment makes these nations more vulnerable to climate disasters, less able-to respond.

01:12:27: But also most of the financing for climate is based on debt creating loans right?

01:12:34: So we have this debt in climate cycle and trap as well.

01:12:38: so sovereign debt, climate affordability... These are all entry points!

01:12:45: doorways toward advancing this discussion and advancing this movement.

01:12:50: Essentially, I think we need a rigorously global movement towards social economic climate justice in ways that do not differentiate the social vis-a-vis the social contract of health education The welfare state the social provisioning the social equality the economic production, employment economic sectors the dynamism and health and vitality of local businesses entrepreneurship fair distribution resources.

01:13:25: And climate in terms of ecological boundaries planetary boundaries that you know donut economics and ecological economics points to.

01:13:36: so I think this new ways thinking doing being looking at how we can really galvanize media, especially independent media but also the corporate media.

01:13:49: How we can further podcasts and virtual forums But also how we could embed progressive ideas into culture.

01:14:01: I do believe that channel for change on the street Like the street level changemaking is through culture, it's music and movies.

01:14:15: And social media... ...and dance!

01:14:22: Just everyday street culture The way in which we are talking and relating to conversations at coffee shops The spoken word that poets are reading The plays & theatre The topics of movies The teaching you know, what we're talking about around the kitchen table.

01:14:41: So let's not forget culture in all that economic talk.

01:14:45: We oftentimes forget That it all starts and begins with culture

01:14:51: And I think that is a wonderful way also to end this.

01:14:54: Thank-you for reminding us of that.

01:14:55: thank you so much For your time and everything that You are doing.

01:14:58: This was really informative Yeah!

01:15:01: Thank you so Much Vamika.

01:15:06: You've been listening to Invisible Handcuffs, Unchaining Economics hosted by me Katie Shields with Music Art and Production by Philip Melchers.

01:15:14: If you enjoyed this episode please consider liking us on YouTube or your favourite podcasting platform and subscribing our website at TheVisibleHandcuffs.com where you can also find the show notes for more about the project!

01:15:27: With that thank-you.