Episode 03 Why the fight to reclaim economics needs feminist economists with Emma Holten

00:00:04: Those things, so when one thing changes

00:00:05: another change.

00:00:15: One of the most powerful economists in Denmark gave a huge interview where he said... And I think they've quieted down a little

00:00:30: bit

00:00:30: now that it's coming out in thirteen countries and sold more than fifty thousand copies.

00:00:34: So, i think the kind

00:00:35: of got around to

00:00:37: fact.

00:00:37: maybe some people were quite interested this but then have been so used too privilege being able

00:00:44: work behind closed

00:00:45: doors no one citizenry ever asking them anything.

00:00:51: So I think in my opinion, what your project can do is to give us the confidence and give people's knowledge.

00:00:57: Say no you're not stupid!

00:00:59: And they might ridicule you or say whatever but when we have each other it gets much easier... ...and i think that gives you confidence.

00:01:06: so see how others speak.. ..and get the tools.

00:01:09: language-to-question system that you feel in body & mind isn't working the way it was supposed to.

00:01:15: Hello and welcome to Invisible Handcuffs podcast that seeks to expose the economic ideology underpinning our crisis and explore ways to free ourselves from its chains.

00:01:24: My name is Katie Shields, I'm a recovering mainstream economist & your host.

00:01:39: with Emma describing it as fundamentally about exploring the concept of reproduction.

00:01:45: The care, love and compassion that makes us healthy humans capable to contribute to our productive economy.

00:01:53: Emma was motivated after a life changing week in hospital where she talks.

00:02:00: Every euro that she has earned from after the life-saving week of care received by nurses working on minimum wage is directly attributable to this.

00:02:13: Economic models, which often focus on short term and treat care as a cost reduced at all costs don't see or measure it's value.

00:02:23: We start by talking about how we got here, going back to the Enlightenment era and how economics back then were seeking to create a science that could compete with Newtonian physics.

00:02:34: That was rational logical and calculable.

00:02:37: but they move on to present day And The Ultimate Contradiction in the liberal project is so influenced the economics today.

00:02:45: Liberalism which one hand is very much about social justice About gender and racial justice And yet on the other hand, because it is also about promoting economic freedom.

00:02:56: The freedom to make a profit and to accumulate tends towards extracting value from people and nature.

00:03:03: So we ultimately end up in this situation where the very models or thinking that's supposed to promote gender equality ends up reinforcing inequality.

00:03:12: This does not just have implications for women, it has implications for all of us because care is ultimately the basis of our economies.

00:03:19: so if we want to move towards societies that are more caring both of each other and of nature in which we all depend.

00:03:27: ,we need to move away from the kinds of models that are devaluing it today .

00:03:31: And we also talk about the implications for our democracies because by handing over decisions to spreadsheets were ultimately taking away decision making power from citizens.

00:03:41: I hope this interview will encourage you to engage with Feminist Economics.

00:03:45: As Emma said, there is safety in numbers and feminist economics is one of a number of fields seeking to challenge the mainstream.

00:03:54: My takeaway from this interview Is that it isn't indispensable field That we need to engage more With that.

00:04:00: please join me In welcoming economist Emma Holton.

00:04:05: So welcome Emma.

00:04:07: thanks for joining us.

00:04:09: Thank You so much For having Me.

00:04:12: I want to dive right in.

00:04:13: We met a couple of months ago at the Scotland's Economics Festival, which is kind of gathering alternative or heterodox economists and you mentioned me there that you enjoyed being here because your heterodox economist yourself when feel lonely on this world in Denmark so maybe can start by saying Why do you feel lonely?

00:04:39: And what are doing in Denmark as a heterodox economist.

00:04:44: So yeah, that's good question.

00:04:45: I'm not classically trained economists so i am political economist usually says thats the distinction some people care about alot and i think its my impression.

00:05:00: Although we are so famous for, you know having this progressive welfare state.

00:05:05: Having loads of gender equality being very full water climate blah blah all these I think there is a very romanticized image of Denmark sometimes.

00:05:14: but despite all this We actually in my opinion have quite conservative class of economists and our country And i think it's maybe because the country is small That you know, of course the smaller a country is and that language is The less diversity there tends to be.

00:05:34: And I think it was just such A joy for me To Be in Edinburgh at the Scottonomics Festival because Sometimes when You're working against the current as i would say i am In some respects... ...you do have these moments where you Just sit on your bed and look in the mirror.. ..and you are like Am I?

00:05:57: ill in the head?

00:05:59: Is there something fundamental that I am misunderstood, like?

00:06:04: are all these people who were saying That i'm an idiot.

00:06:08: Are they right?

00:06:10: and And I think it's a healthy thought

00:06:12: to have

00:06:13: but It can also become somewhat of a burden?

00:06:17: and I thought, okay these people are much smarter than me.

00:06:29: And if they think that i am on to something true then it must be right so... So It gave a boost in swimming against the current.

00:06:41: pretty sure that you are as smart, many of the people we met there.

00:06:46: And I also think when we can quote one another female economist Joan Robinson and saying... We learn economics not to be economists but not to feel by them!

00:06:56: When i'm teaching heterodox economics it's about helping us not being gaslit by economists But its hard as you say when it dominates the narrative so much.

00:07:10: I'd love to get into that, but maybe also particularly for our audience.

00:07:14: You're the first feminist economist we have on this series.

00:07:18: Can you explain a little bit about how you would define feminist economics?

00:07:25: Yeah sure.

00:07:26: so i think many people come to heterodox economics because of climate and natural crisis.

00:07:32: So we have these crises resources.

00:07:35: We have a crisis of heating climates not taking care nature.

00:07:39: But we have also another way into heterodox economics, which is that we are in a care crisis.

00:07:46: We're in the mental health crisis and recruiting crises all over Europe... ...and the world where having difficulties seeing people getting people to work in the care sector And people going down with stress exhaustion within the care-sector.

00:08:02: That was kind of my way into Heterodoxy Economics.

00:08:08: what is going on with our inability to take care of people, all this tremendous wealth that we have.

00:08:15: Why isn't it not being converted into mental well-being?

00:08:20: Like for example like I said i live in Denmark which has country and the world almost... And were seeing declining rates of wellbeing had been for twenty years!

00:08:29: This was a theme over Europe.

00:08:33: so when you work within feminist economics And it's called feminist economics not because its just relevant to women, but because women are over-represented in care work and have always been over represented.

00:08:46: So what we're interested is who does care work?

00:08:48: Who takes care of bodies or minds?

00:08:51: do they have enough resources?

00:08:52: Are the highly valued enough?

00:08:55: What I find very quickly when you start to kind of scratch the surface mainstream economics is that mainstream economics has a huge issue with care.

00:09:03: It has very limited and poor language to describe it.

00:09:06: Sometimes, even says that its value is zero or an expense rather than investment

00:09:14: etc.,

00:09:14: etc.. And in feminist economics we work with trying to counter this narrative... ...and say you know care's not something we pay for after we have economy.

00:09:24: actually care-work makes all other works possible.

00:09:28: so if doesn't work then the whole part of the economy falls apart.

00:09:33: And I think in my opinion, that's what we're seeing happening many places now.

00:09:39: Yeah so there are a few points you mentioned around value but maybe we can come back to... You've written a book called Deficit which goes into also the history of where this comes from.

00:09:53: So what i found really fascinating is your book went right back to where economics started out and the Enlightenment era.

00:10:00: Eda, can you talk a little bit about how views of women then have sort-of been infiltrated and they kind also reinforced themselves in economics today?

00:10:12: Yeah.

00:10:12: I think the reason that I wanted to go into history was that I really want it give economics as science fair shot Because what happens in the Enlightenment when we kind of start having thoughts that end up becoming economics today, is there's this really honorable ambition to describe the world clearly.

00:10:33: And rationally and logically without it being affected by emotion or religion... ...and all these feely-feely things!

00:10:43: That means they become extremely good at describing things quite simple to observe factories, production buying and selling.

00:10:52: But what happens is that the home... And everything it has to do with feelings in bodies which after all are at the core of the economy.

00:11:00: It becomes a little bit like black box for these thinkers.

00:11:08: They're just.

00:11:11: I think there's psychological thing happening Which they also perceive as private And they don't want to kind of get mixed up in all that.

00:11:23: So what they do is, close their home down and it ends having huge consequences for the core interests of economics which are individual and actions of individuals.

00:11:36: I think its understandable why the individual becomes focused because afterall we're individuals but what disappears from view... ...is that were connected with one another.

00:11:46: So every individual is born by another individual, is raised, learns to speak and walk.

00:11:55: Engaged in thinking about other individuals And those relationships how human beings are developed and maintained That becomes simply not something that economics talks so much about.

00:12:07: They're trying to catch up working more with it now.

00:12:12: The problem though the methods they have developed that they're still using have absolutely no way of dealing with those types of relationships.

00:12:22: They are very good at buying and selling cars, but when it comes to being with your child giving birth getting sick dying these types of bodily and human functions... ...they don't really have a way of grasping both neither what the value is for people nor how much it means to us Either what it means to the rest of the economy.

00:12:49: So, The entire area I've taken care of bodies and minds is in my opinion still a black box on economics.

00:12:56: And that's what we're trying to fix with feminist economics

00:13:00: Mm-hmm and unfortunately It is true today.

00:13:02: so as you see economists are trying very belatedly to catch up.

00:13:05: We sell a lot of male dominance issues an economics Right, and that they still identify between just two types of activity.

00:13:18: This work in leisure.

00:13:21: I actually looked at a current economics textbook, a major one used online And indeed it still refers to that.

00:13:28: It's not about leisure but free time.

00:13:31: or people might choose because Economics models are also focused on individual choices.

00:13:37: they might choose to look after their children if paid care is not available.

00:13:42: So can I ask a little bit about that then because you talk as well in your book, kind of the difference between paid-care and unpaid-care?

00:13:48: And also

00:13:50: how...

00:13:51: The payed-care is done by women.

00:13:53: Can you talk on these models?

00:13:55: reproduce those kind of injustices around also paid-care work?

00:14:01: Yeah for sure.

00:14:02: so what we see still today all over the world without any exceptions, women are massively overrepresented in both unpaid and paid

00:14:12: care.

00:14:13: So what that means is if you're a woman then chances are your going to be spending alot of life looking after other people's bodies or minds for free also when at work And this means as a very large chance.

00:14:36: And what happens in two care work is that, in my opinion we tend to talk about culture on one side and economics on the other as if they are unrelated.

00:14:45: But I show this evil cycle where something is economically devalued which is case for carework then it becomes culturally devaluated because of low cultural value economic value, and then that cycle kind of never ends.

00:15:04: And we have these jobs which had the opposite thing you know working at a bank for example.

00:15:10: much money much respect without us really asking wait Which are these two?

00:15:15: Can We not live Without!

00:15:17: Which Of These Two is actually creating something That Is very Very Central to The Economy?

00:15:22: I think it was David Graber and A big Big Inspiration To Me Who Unfortunately Passed Away A Couple of Years ago.

00:15:29: But he said that it seems to me, in our society the more obvious you have a job... ...that helps people the less they seem paid.

00:15:37: And I think this goes for care work like the end of the degree right?

00:15:43: What happens is, and I think one of the reasons that economics for me are so important.

00:15:49: We often times talk about capitalism as a system And we say you know, capitalism is this for-profit system?

00:15:57: Care suffers in capitalism!

00:15:59: That's very true.

00:16:01: However what i find and show in deficit Is also have the language of economics which actually legitimizes the devaluation of care within capitalism, because with in economics they typically use market prices to describe value.

00:16:22: So if I say it's an economist you know... ...I think that a nurse can save three lives during one week but she only makes you know fifteen hundred euros per month He'll say, but fifteen hundred euros a month if she was doing work that were so important.

00:16:40: She would be making more.

00:16:42: The what?

00:16:42: She's making is the value that she has and That's how we talk about it in GDP.

00:16:47: That's How We Talk About In Economics And That Creates A Huge Issue Because The Work That Nurses Do and the Work That Home Cares do Is Relational Right.

00:16:56: So It'S The Care You Do.

00:16:57: Its Long Lasting its long term.

00:16:59: it's complex.

00:17:00: you never know What's Gonna Happen.

00:17:02: So I think in my opinion the reason that care is excluded from economics, it's not because they are sexists and don't care about women.

00:17:11: It is because work that women do or simply other completely different character than a lot of other working in the economy.

00:17:20: so when you're in factory produce car there the car isn.

00:17:23: we can talk to buy them sell but psychologist for example or nurse child care much more complex product right?

00:17:32: because you're imbuing something on a human being that they are carrying with them and we don't really know what their going to be using it for.

00:17:39: And I think this unpredictability, flexibility and slinkiness of care is what challenges the economic system as well in capitalism

00:17:55: too.

00:17:57: I wonder if there's anything else?

00:18:00: And you know, we've had this problem throughout time.

00:18:03: But we did have a period at least kind of in the post-war era and parts of Europe where care work on these more caring... Parts of the economy were at least funded.

00:18:15: I'm sure there's still a lot gender stereotypes within that But I think for me, this is what's interesting.

00:18:23: What we're also trying to get too with the series that whereas in other segments of society you might have seen progress on gender issues and recent other kinds of injustice as more... The particular way that economics has developed especially recently, especially when it pushed to make states function like markets or make them more efficient are often shifting then reinforcing Yeah, the worst aspects of that.

00:18:55: I think this

00:18:55: was something very important to me in writing deficit because i really wanted it to be a book for our wider audience.

00:19:02: I want people who were nurses to read it and elder care to do so as they have these conversations about how their talk is.

00:19:15: in politics.

00:19:16: And I think something that was very important for me to show them, we are all raised in this paradigm where were told economics is like physics or chemistry right?

00:19:29: That if i ask an economist in Tokyo and Berlin how they solve a problem will tell you the same thing.

00:19:37: but what do find?

00:19:38: it's simply not true that there are paradigms and disagreements about what is a good economy?

00:19:44: What does wealth mean, what is valuable.

00:19:46: And... ...what I show in deficit is actually as you describe it the post-war period or what we call the Kinesian Period.

00:19:53: sometimes Is that There was this window where we saw The public sector As an investment.

00:20:02: So that meant that if we educate people well If we teach them how to be socially functioned well, if you take care of them and when they are ill that will strengthen the economy because the resource for human beings would become more competent.

00:20:21: I think Denmark where i live is a perfect example of huge success in this system right?

00:20:26: We're a country with six million people but... have startups and are very, very rich.

00:20:34: And a very well-functioning country in many ways just because of this system.

00:20:38: But what happens at the end of the eighties... ...and especially after the fall of Berlin Wall is that there comes into political systems an idea that ideology is dead.

00:20:50: Now we need to rule the state with science.

00:20:57: The science they choose is economics And the economic science has been a big change at this period because it is going from saying that public services are an investment to believing more, that public service aren't expense and true value being created in private sector.

00:21:15: This language most people in Europe will recognize now right?

00:21:19: We say that the private sector pays for the public sector But how I would see it is that value goes both ways, right?

00:21:27: That the private sector gets a lot from the public sector as well.

00:21:31: And this is and i show this in the book This Is A Very Concrete Shift That Happens In World View In Economics.

00:21:40: What Was Really Stunning To Me was that most economists who are taught economics today Are Not Taught That There Was This Huge change in how they looked at society.

00:21:51: They have an impression that it's always been like this, and I think that was something that is extremely interesting to me – many people who are taught on these disciplines also talk about physics or chemistry.

00:22:06: It doesn't take long for us to study economic history so we can show there has always been a huge disagreement with the type of models which I criticised today… A huge debate within economics, whether they were a good idea.

00:22:21: And we have an amazing political economist, Adni Hilger-Dazia here in Copenhagen who has studied.

00:22:26: why did these models become so popular?

00:22:30: So widely used and what she shows is that it didn't have anything to do with them being better or more true.

00:22:37: They needed less computer power.

00:22:39: They were popular among some strategically placed economists.

00:22:42: There are also some lobbying from places And I really wanted to show that economics has within it a power struggle about how we see the world.

00:22:54: Most regular people are not exposed to this, they just get these numbers thrown into their face and they're not allowed to criticize them or question them.

00:23:11: Hospital ward and you work as a nurse, and they say we want to fire four of your colleagues and save Five hundred thousand euros.

00:23:19: I wanted to give the nurses The confidence to say where are you getting that number from?

00:23:24: How did you reach that?

00:23:25: or have you thought about this and this in this?

00:23:27: And I think we have a lot of respect for numbers in our culture.

00:23:32: I think maybe a little bit too much respect.

00:23:37: So I think we are getting to the, one of the theories that were working on with this project is how then this has upheld and reproduced.

00:23:46: And why also there's so much pushback?

00:23:49: With...I would put feminist economics maybe together with ecological economics as among a kind of newer thought schools.

00:23:55: right you mentioned Keynesianism could talk about Marxism or institutionalism but because as you say Because Of This Rift shutting down of other thought schools.

00:24:07: The debate that you talked about isn't happening anymore, and so when you come with something really new it throws these mainstream economies or as we call them establish the economies because its so outside their paradigm.

00:24:19: I can actually hear myself listening to you in a way i used to think thinking no wait a minute what do we use this say?

00:24:26: You have to compare apples with apples Emma just need put into monetary terms.

00:24:31: then work out cost benefits And then we have this nice clear strategy.

00:24:35: But as you say, and you've referred to some of these studies in your books as well... You can get wildly different estimates!

00:24:41: In fact, you could almost get any number that you want from those models.

00:24:45: Yeah

00:24:45: I think it's something very central right?

00:24:48: That there was ambition to see the world clearly and describe it with numbers.

00:24:56: It is still perceived within economics as apolitical And I think this is something that stunned me when i started working closely with economics and talking about my book, many of them perceived their theories to be completely neutral.

00:25:14: How can you say using prices to measure value is neutral?

00:25:20: when we're sitting here with a nurse at the cancer ward making you know, fifteen hundred euros and then we have a hedge fund manager moving money around in this spreadsheet.

00:25:30: Making ten thousand euros or two hundred thousand euros per month how can you still believe it?

00:25:37: And just... You see that question.

00:25:41: they don't even really know exactly to respond because what I will say is okay but The nurse is employed in the public sector.

00:25:50: And if she was in the private sector, She would get money that reflects her worth.

00:25:54: and I can just say we have nurses In a place like America.

00:26:00: they don't make jack shit money either.

00:26:02: so it's not.

00:26:04: It's not A solution to this issue and i think there Is within economics a tremendous faith Theory that I describe in the book called marginalism, which is a theory.

00:26:22: Mm-hmm That The price of something would will describe its worth?

00:26:26: The trust and that Is just In my opinion And i'm gonna say this i mean it in kind way It is almost a little bit religious.

00:26:35: Um then they'll say oh yeah i know there are some market failures and blah blah blah.

00:26:41: But that means that the way that many economists approach the market is a perfect thing that gets destroyed by human beings.

00:26:51: And if we can just fix the things that are wrong, these little market failures then everything will be right.

00:26:58: instead of saying actually The Market Is Not Something That Is Outside Human Beings It Is Always Defined By Human Beans.

00:27:05: and you cannot keep calling human beings A Failure.

00:27:08: If The Failure Isn't Every Market it's not a failure its a Substantive Part Of The System You're Trying To Describe.

00:27:16: What strikes me often is that there's something I admire in economics which is a tremendous abstraction level.

00:27:25: An ability to really see society from on up high and understand what's going on, And it does sometimes do... That you have to abstract away concrete lived reality.

00:27:42: And I think that especially in the area of care, but also nature city planning all these places where we use cost-benefit analysis for example.

00:27:51: It can lead you to a situation Where your abstracting away everything That really matters to people and shapes their daily lives.

00:28:01: Marginalism was great tool as well To move from sort of deep politicize In a way decision making.

00:28:09: Exactly!

00:28:10: When you mention power there I get the impression that economists, and i'd love to know also maybe a bit if you can talk about interactions we've had but are may be not aware of the power of these spreadsheets.

00:28:21: But what an alternative could look like?

00:28:24: Just making a democratic decision on what is important as society...

00:28:31: Maybe this was my main gripe with economics because after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the kind of bureaucratization up a lot of political processes, was that... The central question of policy which is what does it mean to live a good life?

00:28:53: That became a bureaucratic question instead of a democratic question.

00:28:58: So one question about what's valuable means something That is not something that we decide democratically anymore, and I think We cannot underestimate right now.

00:29:08: We are living in a situation both In the states and in Europe and many countries around the world where the frustration with especially Kind of center-right at Center left parties is huge.

00:29:22: people Are so angry on both the Left and the Right?

00:29:26: And People are polarizing up out towards The flanks, right?

00:29:32: So we just saw it in the UK today.

00:29:36: They're counting up the election and what we are seeing is that Labour and Conservative are losing to reform on the Greens And were see exactly same movement in Denmark Same Germany with IFD and left.

00:29:47: everywhere's the same.

00:29:49: I think thats because these big centre parties adopted this one size fits all definition of value which was GDP growth, productivity growth labor supply reforms increased consumption.

00:30:07: And with that came indeed increase consumption but also increased inequality lack of investment in care lack of investments in zones outside the big cities.

00:30:22: and I think it's interesting That some of the points that ecological and feminist and heterodox economists have made for a long time, which is that the market cannot solve everything.

00:30:32: The state has to be active in places as well... ...that it's been perceived for a very long time within economics as just illegal right?

00:30:45: Everytime the State gets involved, It distorts the Market!

00:30:50: But just the other day Ernst and Young, this huge consulting firm came out and said industrial policy is back.

00:30:57: The market prices do not reflect value.

00:30:59: we have seen at the UN panel on post GDP growth coming up saying same thing.

00:31:06: even IMF, International Monetary Fund has come out and say our previous policy on industrial policies which was hands off state.

00:31:17: I think they wrote that it was as useful as a floppy disk.

00:31:21: And, and i think It is...it does feel vindicating but also feels tremendously frustrating because for a long time we have just been ridiculed saying this market Is shaped by the state?

00:31:35: The State comes first then comes the Market!

00:31:38: Many economists right now are a little bit scrambling to update their priors situation that we're in now and to solving issues like geopolitical issues, climate issues.

00:31:52: And care issues because the tools they have been given which is basically marketize everything In many cases simply cannot answer The questions that were sitting with right?

00:32:02: Now

00:32:05: You know what I don't know.

00:32:07: if for a stage yet That we might see the mainstream you collaborate With these other schools at least there seems There seems to be, so one theory I'm working on at least and i think we talked a little bit about this in Scotland is that partly because these other schools which also don't fully agree with each other on everything are kind of pushed the side.

00:32:25: That there's more you know collaboration within them.

00:32:29: You mentioned industrial policy Which has been taken up by sort of post-war scholars and things like that.

00:32:35: Yeah maybe can you talk to that?

00:32:37: Are you seeing any developments here?

00:32:38: I dunno what it's like in Denmark or elsewhere.

00:32:41: I think for me Writing deficit also stemmed from many different types of frustrations, but one was that in Denmark we have an incredibly vital and smart climate-and nature movement.

00:32:58: And actually, in the past ten years we've gotten also a very clever and vital feminist right-spaced identity politics movement.

00:33:07: What I saw was that these movements are completely separate like they have nothing to do with each other!

00:33:13: All of those people who were doing tremendous work where... They weren't pulling different directions but not coordinating or organizing their works.

00:33:22: And I think that's where feminist economics is so useful to me because it shows That actually there is a path forward Where the care crisis and the nature crisis are kind of solved an attack in tandem?

00:33:37: What i write in deficit, Is that Nature and unpaid care Are fellow sufferers In the economy.

00:33:45: they suffer under The same system which is misvaluation.

00:33:50: In a green world, in a greener world where we take better care of our planet and all with our planet also ourselves.

00:33:58: Many many more people should be working with care both in the private sector on the public sector.

00:34:04: it is Green work It's sustainable work And when We lessen Our consumption?

00:34:09: It Also frees up time to do other things and in economics that'll often Be seen as Less value.

00:34:17: so if We lessened Consumptioned We feel poorer.

00:34:20: But what feminist economics tells us is, no wait.

00:34:23: Actually the time we spend outside of work which is unpriced actually it's something that when you really ask people... It is the most valuable thing to them.

00:34:35: and I think this an experience i haven't been in Denmark all my life.

00:34:40: So if imagine a future like these where you give up your kitchen You give up some dresses from H&M, you give maybe the charter vacation to Mallorca.

00:34:50: But instead... ...you get a child care that is a role-roist of childcare!

00:34:56: You get four hours per day with your children just play outside work….

00:35:01: …you get parks and recreation, free physical therapy for everybody—free psychologists for everyone would be a trade you'd interested in.

00:35:11: And people say it's transition.

00:35:14: But for sure, like you've got my attention.

00:35:16: Like that sounds something I could get on board

00:35:18: with.".

00:35:19: And suddenly the question about degrowth and restructuring our consumption seems not like something that would make us poorer but something that will make us richer?

00:35:31: That's where feminist economics can really supply to the green movement because we are speaking what creates value in people lives' minds.

00:35:40: And I think sometimes in a green movement, there is this yes you will have to give up your consumption.

00:35:45: You'll have to live on less like this sometimes little bit dystopian language that they get accused of right?

00:35:54: and i think we could help with saying actually for many people having more time for care and using the resources for better care work would be seen as getting richer And that's just a completely different way of looking at it than economics does right now.

00:36:15: Great, so you wrote this deficit and... You mentioned several languages already translated up to ten I think overall?

00:36:25: Yeah i think ten are out and its coming out in thirteen.

00:36:29: all-in-all spain and portugal is on the way Japan is on their way Hungary..I actually lost a little bit grip over some other things.

00:36:37: I'm just going with the flow.

00:36:42: Well, yeah it's a testament to I think the clarity as well that you've written and communicated these issues.

00:36:50: so i certainly have found.

00:36:54: So apart from sort of going out and talking about the book, which in itself is wonderful.

00:37:02: Is there anything or maybe you can talk a little bit to the reactions that are coming from it?

00:37:11: I think what seems to be the most important... And one thing my opinion things that we need to do in feminism or part more of primary tasks is That it gives language-to-lived experience.

00:37:29: So I think so many people both People in care and outside care had like an inkling Like, something is wrong.

00:37:37: We're structuring this society all wrong and I think that frustration.

00:37:41: it can take many shapes right?

00:37:43: It could shape in a more right-wing direction where you become a trad wife or we can take shape in the left wing direction when he becomes climate warrior.

00:37:54: but my opinion these reactions while they are different seem to be reacting to same thing which I cannot live my life on the terms that have been set out by this society, i simply must opt-out of all these bullshit.

00:38:10: And what it has done which is just such a privilege and an honor or many people tell me... It's given them language for feeling they had Names for something like a mother having mental load.

00:38:31: There's something called unpaid care work and the sense that you have, That we're valuing the wrong things And that your spending your entire life on things that don't seem to be important?

00:38:47: You can prove it, but that is actually what's happening.

00:38:50: And I think that's the really response that I got and i think That goes for just regular people But with four people who are working in care It really has been like a call to arms In many ways because In the models that we use in finance departments all over the world, including every single country in Europe.

00:39:13: They are using models where money spent on care is seen as something that creates absolutely no value and Where it looks us if you can remove money from the care sector without losing anything.

00:39:25: And I think many people working in The Care Sector have had a sense like why are We making these decisions?

00:39:31: That Are so stupid?

00:39:33: That hurts children, hurts sick people.

00:39:35: Hurts us who are working

00:39:36: here.".

00:39:37: And suddenly they could see.

00:39:38: actually this is the reason because politicians look at a piece of paper that says the less care we have the richer we are and it gave them kind of a target for their wrath... I think that wrath needed a target!

00:39:54: The target was not only political but also bureaucratic.

00:39:58: Bureaucracy is often hidden from view regular citizens.

00:40:03: And I really wanted it out in the front and say, you know are you aware that this is happening?

00:40:08: That's how they count.

00:40:10: um...and where these numbers come from.

00:40:14: This why i think like what your talking about there makes so much sense to combine social and ecological movements because we see same problem with energy and nature as two or three percent of GDP.

00:40:29: No, it's not.

00:40:29: It actually the entire economy doesn't function without energy and also doesnt' function with out care.

00:40:34: We take these things away we have no economy.

00:40:38: So yeah I think getting in articulating that.

00:40:43: so maybe And i want to be respectful of your time you've got run another appointment.

00:40:49: Maybe do two closing questions which are welcome either order.

00:40:56: One would be if you've got anything for people listening, um... Anything that you think they could do.

00:41:01: If-if they listened to these issues we're talking about and take care.

00:41:05: And maybe also if you have any feedback on our work.

00:41:09: I explained a little bit what were trying to do Our project's called Invisible Hand Cuffs.

00:41:13: We are trying make visible A lot of the assumptions The ways uh.. These decisions being taken so People can sort of work with us To reclaim economics.

00:41:23: i think What I would really encourage people to do is that, of course what we're just talking about today are huge systems.

00:41:31: And as an individual it's extremely difficult to affect them.

00:41:34: however you can and know from the feminist movement was when women started questioning authority and men started questioning on behalf of women, saying actually why?

00:41:54: Please explain to me again.

00:41:55: Why are we doing it like

00:41:56: this?".

00:41:57: And I think one other thing that is extremely important both for climate and social issues... ...is moving our attention towards real resources away from money only!

00:42:10: Because it's so interesting, because every time I talk about care with people they say oh but how will we get the money to pay for all this care?

00:42:18: And i say How Will You Get Money If The Care Is Not Working and We Are So Afraid Of Not Having Enough Money But We Never Ask Ourselves Where Would We Get The Natural Resources if We Use Them All Up.

00:42:30: Where Will We Get New Inventions If People are Depressed And Not Feeling Happy?

00:42:35: And I think that is something that's going to be happening now, both with the energy crisis.

00:42:39: With the geopolitical crises and the care-and-nature crisis... ...is we're gonna see a renewed focus on real resources because that is what the economy has made of.

00:42:48: You can have as much money in your bank but if people are not happy or healthy If you don't have natural resource, transports, housing then none will work.

00:42:59: So I think focusing on real resources and when you observe the political debate, And talk to people about politics.

00:43:05: Don't talk about the lack of money.

00:43:07: Talk About The Capacity Of A Country!

00:43:10: That is really important.

00:43:11: Are we getting smarter?

00:43:12: Are We Living Longer?

00:43:13: Or Healthier?

00:43:14: That's the type of questions i'm asking In terms your work... I Think We Need All Hands On Deck For This Because this Is a Huge And Invisible Power Structure And I think it is so central to challenge these types of narratives, but... It's very difficult right now because what we talked about before that the people who speak in this way are tremendously powerful and they will not bulk at ridiculing or humiliating you.

00:43:45: And I think this is something that, even though i write about it in the book.

00:44:07: They've quieted down a little bit now that it's coming out in thirteen countries and sold more than fifty thousand copies.

00:44:19: So I think they kind of got around to the fact, maybe some people were quite interested on this but they have been so used to... The privilege being able work behind closed doors No one in the citizenry ever asking them anything And lot their power comes from there.

00:44:38: So I think in my opinion, what your project can do is to give us the confidence and give people's knowledge.

00:44:45: Say no you're not stupid!

00:44:46: And they might ridicule you or say whatever but when we have each other it gets much easier... ...and i think that gives you confidence to see others speak.. ..and get tools from language to question a system which you feel in mind isn't working as well.

00:45:04: Well, thank you Emma.

00:45:05: I will certainly do our best to do that!

00:45:07: I was just envisioning there maybe we'll come up to Denmark and doing a book throwing some mainstream economic textbooks out of hospitals with care workers.

00:45:16: Oh my goodness...I would really enjoy it.

00:45:20: That'd be very vindicating for me.

00:45:25: Okay, I'll be planning a trip.

00:45:27: Thank you so much once again.

00:45:29: thank you for everything that your doing all the best and i hope we will certainly stay in touch and organise that trip up to Denmark!

00:45:36: I will be holding my windows open for you have wonderful weekend.

00:45:40: thankyou so much for having me enjoy

00:45:43: this spring.

00:45:53: If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider liking and following us on YouTube or your favourite podcasting platform.

00:45:59: And by subscribing to our website at TheVisibleHandcuffs.com where you can also find the show notes for more about the project.

00:46:06: with that

00:46:07: Thank You For Listening.