Episode 10 How accreditation could help create an economics fit for these times with Shloka Murarka

00:00:00: What I would like to see from people is just an interest in economics education, because right now there are so many working on economic systems.

00:00:10: And the biggest way that I truly believe influence change through education... ...because we're missing out on students who could otherwise be a part of this story and finding the next policy you want or group which will change something.

00:00:28: students will start entering the space and staying in this place, if the curriculum doesn't change a little bit more to accommodate.

00:00:36: And make them feel more represented?

00:00:39: I think it's circular right.

00:00:40: like you don't enter economics because it doesn't talk to your issues but then You don't have graduates from those backgrounds So they're not creating new ideas.

00:00:49: we need to see The policies that are needed To fix these issues those things,

00:00:58: so when one thing changes another change.

00:01:11: Hello and welcome to Invisible Handcuffs a podcast that seeks to expose the economic ideology underpinning our crisis an explore ways we can free ourselves from its chains.

00:01:20: My name is Katie Shields and I'm a Recovery Mainstream Economist.

00:01:23: Don Maynard Keynes famously wrote how he hoped that economists would one day see themselves as humble, competent people like dentists.

00:01:30: So what makes a good economist?

00:01:33: What makes a Good Economics Curriculum?

00:01:35: That's all i talk about with this week's guest Shloka Amaraka A former activist who was rethinking economics currently completing her master's And sits on the board of The New UK Association for Quality Economics or AQE.

00:01:48: I spoke with Shloka just after she'd arrived in Paris for an Erasmus Masters and shortly before the student protests broke out.

00:01:55: So it felt... fitting to be sharing this conversation.

00:01:58: This week, which is essentially a conversation about young people's education from the streets of Paris to Brussels and Mumbai Young People are demanding an education And let us face it An economy that serves their futures.

00:02:10: Neither of those things Are happening.

00:02:11: right now It feels like economics as field Of study sits at middle of that Venn diagram As many my guests on this show have already spoken to.

00:02:19: Economics likes see itself as hard science as vocational Science.

00:02:23: doing positive research have mused that economics is so powerful, these tools are so powerful and the decisions based on them are so impactful.

00:02:33: That economists ought to take a Hippocratic oath.

00:02:35: in the UK there's some two hundred bodies governing different disciplines from medicine and law to accounting, of course dentistry.

00:02:44: The AQE is an initiative.

00:02:45: Shloka almost provoked during a sustainability conference when she discovered that no such body for economic success.

00:02:53: if you're interested in finding out more do listen to the interview.

00:02:56: I'll provide links to the association on some other resources in this show notes with that.

00:03:02: please join me welcoming Shlokha Maraka.

00:03:05: Welcome Shloka to Invisible Handcuffs, thank you for joining us.

00:03:09: Thank you so much for having me.

00:03:10: this is very exciting.

00:03:11: also I love your name.

00:03:14: Thanks yeah we love it too!

00:03:16: We're here to talk about this economics accreditation the AQ which was moving ahead in the UK and i know that you were kind of a driving force behind that as you mentioned that you had been in the U.K To study Economics.

00:03:29: but i'm wondering what took to the UK, and is there a reason why you wanted to study economics?

00:03:36: So actually I've always been in the British education system because i went to an international school in India which means it was uh the GCSE curriculum but not in India.

00:03:46: so I have alway's been this UK Education Which Is Actually Very Strange To Do When You're Retired In India Because when your learn about like geography or weather And Your Learning About The Winter Or How Great It Is Something That You Don't Relate To At All.

00:04:00: So I came across the idea of like, not relating to your education by doing the UK system.

00:04:06: Like we didn't have a monsoon when we learned about the weather and it was... We would raise our hands and be like okay but we had a monsoon in Bombay!

00:04:14: Why are you not learning this?

00:04:15: When will learn about these seasons?

00:04:16: or for example poetry read of John Keats on Robert Frost And don't really relate that scene they're setting suddenly i come to London made sense so always in headspace off.

00:04:29: I would like my education to speak a bit more where I come from.

00:04:34: And, i fell in love with economics In the GCSEs honestly Like just when I was preparing for the exams.

00:04:40: It's quite an nerdy story...like..I kind of enjoyed how everything clicked and How models explained things so seamlessly.

00:04:49: But then we'd go in and critique the multiples.

00:04:51: That is very exciting!

00:04:53: And in particular We do the idea Of the prebiasing hypothesis When you do A level economics which talks about how the terms of trade for certain countries worse and over time.

00:05:05: So it's this idea from like, The Structuralist School in Latin America that talks about her developing countries get stuck on a cycle off being exporters or raw materials And they can never out of fit.

00:05:16: but its very neat economic explanation For something we understand more politically.

00:05:24: And so to see that shown through numbers I think is what spoke me.

00:05:28: But then I realized my curriculum and general economics curriculum doesn't actually teach the structuralist school very much And this just forms like a small part of what is considered kind-of good or big Like standard economics.

00:05:42: So, i think that became little more interested in What's there outside?

00:05:45: Of we get taught on the textbooks?

00:05:48: Mm-hmm!

00:05:49: When arrived at UK to do my undergrad.

00:05:52: so as I joined the rethinking economics group because they were having more of these informal conversations around what exists outside the textbooks.

00:06:00: And yeah, that's basically how I got involved with this project at The Association for Quality Economics.

00:06:07: Yeah Thank you.

00:06:10: I'd love to also, maybe...I should probably get someone on to speak as well more about the structuralist school.

00:06:15: We've not spoken about that yet but yeah it's important to have all these different perspectives.

00:06:22: Yeah so i'd like to get into the AQE Maybe before we do.

00:06:25: That is something that I ask all of our guests.

00:06:27: As you mentioned The name of this podcast Is Invisible Handcuffs.

00:06:30: It's a play on Invisible hand by Adam Smith But Also This idea that kind of You Have.

00:06:34: These Economic Ideas Are Very Powerful But They're Kind Of Hidden And they are To An Extent behind some of the crisis that we're facing.

00:06:42: They look very neat, and it's nice to see these mathematical models but they often hide things like power as you mentioned.

00:06:48: there are also other things hidden But I'd like hear a little bit about what in your opinion is going wrong with economics?

00:07:00: My personal experience has always drawn me into the feminist political economy space And I think that's also like the structuralist school resonated with me because i was in India and seeing their reality of inequality every single day, when you see it within the country.

00:07:16: And geographic inequality across the global north on the global south is easy to ignore You know?

00:07:23: Like I come here live in Germany and I don't necessarily hold this against my peers who are not thinking about it all day everyday Because they grew up in a world That just kind of like self-contained.

00:07:34: so your politics student okay reading about you should be engaged.

00:07:37: There's this like intrinsic motivation that oh, You should look and you should read further but when you're in India it's kind of like In your face every single day.

00:07:46: It's not something you can actually Not think about And not observe or feel.

00:07:52: I came from a very traditional kind of family A conservative family patriarchal family.

00:07:57: That is how i just got interested in feminist political economy.

00:08:00: So to me the starting point Economics, the starting point of understanding our economy starts with understanding care work domestic work and how that's subsidizing the rest of our economy.

00:08:11: So in India most women work.

00:08:13: all women work.

00:08:14: whether it's paid or unpaid everyone is working.

00:08:18: but when it shows up an economic statistics its roughly like less than twenty percent female labour force participation.

00:08:25: It's one of the lowest participation rates in the world and that to me was very jarring, to see how different statistics in kind of reality could be.

00:08:34: So I think the idea is all women are working.

00:08:38: also all poor people are working right?

00:08:40: Like at undergrad i got here with an idea like they're working poor And it's like It IS THE WORKING POOR!

00:08:45: IT'S NOT AN IDEA OF POVERTY THAT WE HAVE OF PEOPLE EVERYONE'S WORKIN' ALL THE TIME.

00:08:51: AND SO I THINK THE INFORMALITY AND THE FEMINIZED INFORMAILITY IN INDIA WAS MY... is my main kind of problem that I recognize within the economics discipline.

00:09:05: Yeah, yeah.

00:09:05: And we'll get into this.

00:09:06: and we were talking as well a little bit offline on.

00:09:09: this is kind of our recurring theme.

00:09:11: you'd mentioned.

00:09:12: I've had Emma Holton in the feminist economists to speak to us also Bumika Mochalla who's a decolonial feminist scholar.

00:09:21: so it was coming up again.

00:09:23: one interesting thing is that economics continues to be very male dominated by most male dominated disciplines but also very influential, partly because they have those nice mathematical models that give us the answers policy makers would be looking for.

00:09:39: But then overlooking those power dynamics and problems behind it You mentioned you were active with rethinking economics And this project came about.

00:09:49: Can we talk a bit on how that happened?

00:09:51: I think there was a sustainability network in the UK.

00:09:55: So rethinking Economics is more of an informal student group at SOAS.

00:10:00: And then Rethink UK put out a call for students to participate in our conference that was taking place at Windsor Castle.

00:10:07: They would pay your train to go to Windsor castle, so I was like... ...I'd love to have somebody pay my train!

00:10:13: I've never been there before and didn't particularly look into what the conference is going be doing.

00:10:18: very much.. ..and when we got information it wasn't an economics conference but suddenly felt really out of place.

00:10:25: I was like, oh this is a sustainability conference.

00:10:27: I care about sustainability but i don't have very much to say.

00:10:33: But it was across all sectors.

00:10:35: It was run by SOS UK students organizing for Sustainability UK and the EAUC And basically they had All their regulatory bodies in The university sector who Like For example the ACCA which Is accounting accrediting body And then there's one for law and medicine.

00:10:54: There is like two hundred in the UK, so that was roughly twenty present to them.

00:10:58: Then they had employers come in... Okay!

00:11:00: ...and students came in.

00:11:02: So it would be a Law student or Medicine student.

00:11:04: The idea was show education regulation bodies That their demand on both sides.

00:11:11: Employers want green skills.

00:11:14: Employer wants students have this kind of sustainability education know how apply And at the same time, students won these skills.

00:11:23: So it is up to these university regulators in the middle to fill that gap.

00:11:28: and a lot of conversation was around like there's a lot sustainability being taught now but its often an optional module or on an optional program you can take.

00:11:38: so this story about embedding how we can embed sustainability education across the board because for example me I don't want to pursue sustainability as my main economic focus But I understand anything that has to do with labour, women.

00:11:53: Everything is going to have some understanding of

00:11:55: sustainability.".

00:11:56: So the idea for embedding really spoke to me and the format they had listening to their students or employers kind-of equally was fascinating.

00:12:07: so i arrived there.

00:12:10: all the students were assigned to cozy up to the regulator we represented by as an economic student economics, education body present.

00:12:22: And so I asked the organizers just like oh who should i speak to you know?

00:12:26: Who Should I Sit Next To At Dinner?

00:12:28: and they were like there's no economics one.

00:12:30: that kind of just noticed... Maybe You Can Talk To Accounting.

00:12:33: There Is An Accounting One No Accounting Student and I don't Know I'm The Wrong Economic Student For That Like.

00:12:38: I Was Just Like.

00:12:38: Nope!

00:12:39: I Don'T Want To Talk To Accounting.

00:12:40: I Do Something That'S Very Different From Accounting and Accountings.

00:12:44: Cool But It'S Not What I Do.

00:12:46: it'S not something I can Speak To at All.

00:12:48: we should just look into why there isn't one for economics.

00:12:52: And so this event that was held at St George's house across two days, it was quite a big success and afterwards in the conference kind of deliverables like what they came up with to end... They put as long term goal.

00:13:05: is someone who looks into why body doesn't exist for economics?

00:13:08: I considered that massive win that you know.. I had been outspoken enough that they have listened like a physical document later.

00:13:21: And this was in Feb, it was actually on my birthday.

00:13:24: so this is on Feb twenty-sixth.

00:13:26: and then June.

00:13:27: they called me said okay we have some money.

00:13:31: do you want to look into why doesn't exist for economics?

00:13:34: Like someone needs to do that yeah there's my summer job And that's how it kind of began.

00:13:41: So

00:13:41: there was a regulatory body for accountants, I guess they're kind of regular to bodies or other.

00:13:46: so you said There were quite a lot of subjects not just accounting.

00:13:49: what some other different disciplines

00:13:50: in the UK?

00:13:54: Yes professional statutory Regulatory Bodies and They can have different functions, so they don't have to be regulators per se.

00:14:05: To Be A regulator You Have to be all-encompassing, like nobody can become a doctor unless you say so.

00:14:11: So I would say most bodies are not like that but they are just a membership body in the discipline that accredits the program.

00:14:17: to say this programme is good ,this programme teaches us skills we think should have .

00:14:25: That becomes an accrediting body instead of regulating it.

00:14:29: At the moment there's two hundred for these different disciplines and A good economist should be, this is what we think economics kind of should look like I guess.

00:14:42: Yeah yeah and there's split just so we're more transparent okay?

00:14:47: And it was something that we understood when i began to do this work over the summer where he said why doesn't exist for economics because we didn't have an intuitive answer that jumped our head whereas its not considered vocational.

00:15:00: The subjects who had a regulatory body or an accrediting are usually ones that I consider vocational subjects.

00:15:06: So even like nursing has a body because it's considered vocational.

00:15:11: Yeah, interesting yeah this is something that i've thought about a lot.

00:15:15: mean...I don't want to go too much off tangent here but the fact that in economics and there was actually just studies on recently one of Kind of more conservative think tanks in the UK talking about sort how much you can earn if you study economics, but that is partly because.

00:15:30: You have one group of economists or people who study economics are going into banking our finance and maybe they're doing good things.

00:15:37: there may be their doing less good thing's But then you have got a group Regulation, they might be going into the central bank or the treasury.

00:15:46: Or some sort of government service are working in a regulatory office and so we may have a kind of function.

00:15:51: that is really about you know how the economy should function.

00:15:54: then there're lots and lots I guess ethical questions.

00:15:57: So

00:15:57: the government economic services as the biggest employer for economics graduates And then to get placed across different departments In the UK They had green book which was their set of standards that economists must Work by and because those people are then being treated as vocational economists practicing economists.

00:16:18: But increasingly the government also has an apprenticeship for economic students Which is doing really well, and then they have a separate standard that is created For the apprenticeships students to follow.

00:16:30: so we do treat economics As quite vocational at the end of today.

00:16:34: And even though you go into the private sector I think They do make a lot of money sometimes and that is because they have this massive influence, right?

00:16:44: Like the private banks' private trusts has so much influence on our daily lives.

00:16:50: Yeah definitely okay!

00:16:52: So you got your summer job.

00:16:54: can you tell us about what involved taking it up to?

00:16:58: I guess now there's a report coming out in the back which we also get into.

00:17:02: but yeah... What were you then tasked with doing?

00:17:06: We had to figure why a body doesn't exist, if it should exist.

00:17:11: If it existed who would support?

00:17:13: Who will like not necessarily be in favor of and even possible to set one up?

00:17:19: because lot the bodies that exists now are very old right.

00:17:23: they exist almost by royal decree.

00:17:25: That's what I love.

00:17:26: them are called like Royal Bodies so well that look like Now to Set One Up And we saw there was alot interest.

00:17:34: There is lots

00:17:35: groups

00:17:36: In the UK, doing similar things.

00:17:38: Of course there's a Royal Economics Society.

00:17:41: There is also the economics network which then helps these curriculum changes to be taught to academics and works with academics to see if they have skills that deliver them.

00:17:52: So groups like this And we saw most of those were open for the idea.

00:17:58: It was an inertia in education sector That had been floated.

00:18:05: there were people who are in support of it.

00:18:08: At the end of day, these things need funding.

00:18:10: they needed dedicated resources and be partnered with The New Economics Foundation so that project started a collaboration between students organizing for Sustainability UK And The New economics foundation.

00:18:25: because at the end-of-the-day only thing thats wrong with economics is not sustainability.

00:18:30: We cannot have it only about sustainability.

00:18:32: So we really needed to partner that was focused economics directly.

00:18:37: And so the directors for both of them, Jamie Gombar at SOS and Danny at Neff were very supportive.

00:18:45: and while in theory I was like student-led fantastic you know it's so exciting that this space is student led but i didn't understand what that means till i had my first meeting with both of What I think is the issue, what i think can be done.

00:19:08: And they were like okay let's do it.

00:19:10: and the idea that they took that risk to do something so new... ...and also kind of walked the talk off saying we will do something student-led.. ..and actually gave students that much leeway power to do.

00:19:25: it was very exciting.

00:19:28: So the project was then run by... We were able to get some funding and we got funding start by JJ Charitable Trust.

00:19:35: And have also been in touch with a lot of other funders, so it's like private philanthropy funders in the UK.

00:19:42: Mm-hmm!

00:19:42: And so we were able pay student staff positions.. ..so there are three students' staff that got the project going.

00:19:49: We ran a survey ,we created an advisory board .We did a report ...and then the report you're talking about is this second report.

00:19:57: actually The first one just mapped what the different regulatory bodies and what the difference membership bodies in the UK look like.

00:20:05: And then second, spoke more to economics.

00:20:08: Yeah!

00:20:09: And also the results of your survey.

00:20:12: so you surveyed... Students?

00:20:14: Just students?

00:20:14: Just

00:20:15: student?

00:20:15: okay

00:20:16: We reached them through National Union for students

00:20:19: Okay..okay ..and

00:20:20: the idea was just understand What students want ,what students feel they have missing.

00:20:26: We wanted to target university students, but also kind of the ones who are just beginning what they expect out of their degree.

00:20:33: How those expectations get met.

00:20:35: why?

00:20:35: They're taking economics here.

00:20:37: so yeah and managed to reach quite a lot as well.

00:20:39: I think i have been going through the results.

00:20:42: it's a fascinating report!

00:20:44: I think we reached like three hundred eighty students or something which is a good number to get too.

00:20:49: But as you can imagine there's a lot of economic students in the UK.

00:20:53: Yeah

00:20:55: The gender split we got was not very representative of, like the number wasn't big enough to be a representative of the discipline necessarily.

00:21:02: Like it was more girls who answered but we know that girls are underrepresented in economics.

00:21:07: Yeah But for me its interesting because actually speaks too... ...the fact women want to be more engaged and this kind of external outreach, external surveys

00:21:16: And also they have I guess more things about what you think economics could do differently.

00:21:23: This is something that we hear again and again, also in the conversations.

00:21:51: Yeah.

00:21:51: And Nef helped, we don't have enough hours on everyone's side to do something that becomes entirely done by one person.

00:22:01: so in a way it is good because everything is a collaboration and working together.

00:22:06: So there was definitely support from all around.

00:22:08: but Lauren let it.

00:22:10: It's sort of poor at what everybody contributed too.

00:22:13: Everyone had to be okay with before going out into the world.

00:22:18: as you bench with your advisory board, I imagine this well.

00:22:22: What's really striking is that it's pretty clear from your findings, the conversations you've had for this survey.

00:22:28: It starts off by saying economics as a discipline is failing.

00:22:31: students who arrive with hopes of making positive difference in the world employers cannot find graduates with skills they need and society which urgently requires economists capable tackling defining challenges over time.

00:22:42: so pretty bold statement.

00:22:44: So students are disappointed but also what I think was interesting Employers seem to be also quite frustrated with people who are coming out with economics degrees.

00:22:53: Yeah, so maybe you can speak to some of the key things that also stood out for you from...from the report and from the conversations that you had?

00:23:00: I think before we even get to the primary results of this survey- I think what Lauren did very well is bring together publications that are already out there that are not necessarily in the same space because some of them exist in a more student space or in a new economy space And some are being published in the mainstream.

00:23:20: To me, it was very interesting to see that they both have the same conclusions and results complement each other.

00:23:26: so I also think AQE is good at bringing these conversations together.

00:23:31: We're not trying to pick anybody's side.

00:23:33: we just try to improve the discipline to be more representative of what students want.

00:23:42: There's I think a direct quote from employers saying that in economics, In particular one of the things they really want From students is their ability to apply theory which ends up being lacking.

00:23:51: They do have A good understanding Of Theory but The Ability To Apply Theory To Real World Scenarios Ends Up Being Lacking and i Think It'S Very Unfortunate That That'S The Case.

00:24:02: And A Discipline That Supposed To Speak To Issues Off Inequality And Issues Of Everyday Life Right Like.

00:24:09: it'S Not A Disipline That Is So far removed from life that you're learning physics or your learning chemistry That you are learning like a broader theoretical idea.

00:24:19: That might be hard to be tangible.

00:24:21: We're learning things that I saw tangible, but we just not learning them in ways that are tangible towards anymore.

00:24:26: Yeah yeah very much so sorry

00:24:29: mentioned two things.

00:24:29: You mention the employer side and what since want?

00:24:32: Yeah, we think now in the UK The education sector has become so incredibly expensive And i say that as an international student who made a very big bet coming here, right?

00:24:43: Like I'm coming to the UK not necessarily with their intention to stay but they're intending to learn for three years.

00:24:50: Learn something that is rigorous.

00:24:51: Learned something important and helpful... ...and builds up the skills i want.

00:24:58: But I don't get a lot of insight into what will be learning.

00:25:01: You are relying on this individual university website And it's selling itself because of this like marketization over sector.

00:25:08: It's selling its self.

00:25:10: Sometimes you come to the university and the modules that were advertised aren't even present anymore, because those professors are unavailable this year.

00:25:19: And it's a very recurring issue.

00:25:22: I mean obviously everything cannot be taught everywhere but there is a minimum standard that can be taught and doesn't come down to prescribing what the curriculum looks like just kind of deciding was the minimum skills students should walk away with?

00:25:36: Then offering departments flexibility because we want the uniqueness that departments offer now.

00:25:42: So, I think it's just about sending a signal to students this you know accreditation would look like sending a single two-students That if you go to this department If he got at this university You walk away with this minimum standard and then sending that same signal to employers?

00:25:57: The student has come from here as that minimum standard of learning Has been trained perhaps beyond quantitative methodologies.

00:26:05: Yeah We can also kind of move on to what that would look like and how it might also speak to some of the problems you've mentioned, but coming up in our other discussions we have been having.

00:26:21: Not sort kind of treat it as an externality, but actually is you know the air system being fundamental to our economy.

00:26:34: It's like.

00:26:34: are those some of the things that your thinking and maybe also related to that?

00:26:38: And I know that you're on the board now obviously studying full time in Paris and the project is moving on.

00:26:44: But what do those next steps look like in terms of figuring out What will this accreditation look like?

00:26:50: So

00:26:52: Do have a easier understanding of what accreditation might look Like.

00:26:55: there's this body called QAA The Quality Assurance Agency that exists in the UK, creates a minimum standard for all subjects.

00:27:03: And it's done in an interesting way where you have academics from their entire discipline who are asked to be on this working group and create the subject benchmark.

00:27:11: They work together to reach kind of consensus Then they get reviewed every few years.

00:27:17: The one that exists is actually fantastic.

00:27:20: It goes beyond what we would expect for a minimum standards to go beyond Touching upon these ideas of climate power gender diversity inequality, but there's no mechanism for it to be enforced.

00:27:34: For example in England... There is no accountability!

00:27:37: There is not necessity of a university meeting that standard and so we want step-in fill the gap at least begin with without trying start something new from scratch or do something very radical just saying that subject benchmark standards already exist should implemented.

00:27:53: students shouldn't know when being implemented.

00:27:55: employers should know Okay.

00:27:58: There's also a master student who is on the board for The Benchmark Standard Creation and we're working towards having more student representation in that creation.

00:28:08: because realistically, I say this as a Master Student if there are fifteen academics in our room with me... ...I don't think i'm going to raise my hand and say- I actually do not agree here but maybe it was just few of us.

00:28:21: so QAA has been very responsive.

00:28:26: So, I think that might help picture what next steps might look like.

00:28:30: But coming back to the issue...I think there's these two reports that I personally love both of them very much.

00:28:38: That should be read together.

00:28:40: There was a report in twenty-twenty three by The Royal Economic Society And it just looks at the pipeline who studies economics Who enters?

00:28:51: Who drops out and then who finishes?

00:28:53: And they open with a very bold statement as well, which is just to say economics is an elitist discipline.

00:29:00: and that it goes ahead to extremely well rigorously prove how economics isn't elite as discipline How white male students are extremely over represented in the sample?

00:29:13: There's a class disparity between students who take a lot of subjects but its highest in economics out any discipline.

00:29:21: And even when British or black students in the UK take economics, they're most likely to drop out after first year.

00:29:30: So I think it's not just about people not taking economics It is also once they enter They kind of see that perhaps this isn't space for them be and end up dropping out Which makes me much sadder than their idea of not entering.

00:29:46: The problem begins early on where a lot state schools don't offer A level Economics.

00:29:51: There's also a big geographic disparity within the UK, where in the North especially there is lack of economics and A-level teachers I think.

00:29:59: And so students never get into discipline.

00:30:03: but universities don't require economics as an A level subject.

00:30:08: like if you want to do an economics degree at your bachelors You dont' require economics A level.

00:30:15: But it just most natural step that if you do the A level, your more likely to do the degree itself.

00:30:22: And this year in twenty-twenty six I think economics is officially like the fifth most taken subject for A levels.

00:30:29: so it's a rising in popularity quite significantly but there's no change.

00:30:34: who was able take it right?

00:30:36: If we have more students taking economics and were not changing Who Is Taking Economics?

00:30:40: or The Kind Of Makeup of Whose Taking Economics?

00:30:43: And in some categories of class and racial diversity, it's actually getting worse than it was in twenty-twelve or twenty thirteen.

00:30:52: Then we're just reproducing the problem where... We are increasing the problems instead of dealing with them even slowly.

00:30:59: So there is that report

00:31:00: Maybe to come on high school things The accreditation at AQE would be for universities?

00:31:09: Yes Undergraduate

00:31:11: Universities.

00:31:12: So there's a difference because the Department for Education regulates the curriculum for schools.

00:31:18: It just doesn't do so for universities, so universities rely on individual bodies... independent bodies.

00:31:25: Yeah yeah I'll have a conversation coming up with someone involved in this school curriculum as well and which also kind of suffers from some of its own issues.

00:31:34: i do appreciate like you..I didn't study economics actually at school.

00:31:38: I studied undergraduate and then masters In Scotland, actually an undergraduate is four years.

00:31:43: So the first year was almost a bit like high school and I was also attracted to those kind of models but then got frustrated as you said that it didn't move towards something more real world-like.

00:31:56: maybe this topic for separate discussion... It could be interesting to get people engaged with economics at high school, but also if you stop in a high school and the High School is still kind of teaching that neoclassical very mechanistic mathematical models then there can be some issues.

00:32:15: But as we say it's increasing in popularity when people want to take it.

00:32:20: Then I guess yeah call them to the universities to teach something useful And as you mentioned going together students who are putting a lot time and money into their degrees to give them something at the end that they feel like can actually use hopefully, do some good as well in a world and providing themselves with meaningful paying work.

00:32:41: I think

00:32:41: there's very interesting works being done on A-Levels level around curriculum design or outreach.

00:32:48: so i think there is a group regenerative economics working on the curriculum design side of it based in Germany.

00:32:54: They've also done some work not A level, but are equivalent of the eleventh-twelfth standard and working with their curriculum which I thought was fascinating.

00:33:02: And then there's obviously Discover Economics in the UK that is tied to Royal Economic Society... Okay!

00:33:08: ...I think they do some excellent work as well because they have the connections to do outreach directly with students.

00:33:14: so going into A levels and making students feel valued Making students feel represented and telling them you know if this should join economics it isn't a subject only for rich white boys

00:33:25: Yeah, right.

00:33:27: So maybe we can also talk a little bit about the reception as well to this report and to the initiative?

00:33:34: Before I do that could i Talk About The Second Report I Wanted To Talk About in

00:33:38: Relation

00:33:38: to the Res.

00:33:41: so there's the res report That talks about diversity In the pipeline.

00:33:45: And then they have discovered economics doing outreach work Which I think is needed.

00:33:50: but I don't Think That Can Be A Full Solution.

00:33:54: students will start entering the space and staying in this place, and graduating well.

00:33:59: In this case if the curriculum doesn't change a little bit more to accommodate an make them feel more represented?

00:34:07: And it's I think its circular right.

00:34:09: like you don't enter economics because it doesnt talk your issues but then you dont have graduates from those backgrounds so they are not creating new ideas.

00:34:19: we need see ,the policies that needs to fix these issues Right?

00:34:24: And so it's like a vicious cycle that takes place.

00:34:28: Yes!

00:34:28: So there is also report from Rethinking Economics, which talks about economics education fit for the twenty-first century.

00:34:36: That does mapping of different departments and what has been taught.

00:34:41: They have done very detailed review going into each module in different economics department looking at how much they teach colonialism, how much does it teach about sustainability?

00:34:53: When a teacher's about sustainability is through the idea of market mechanism.

00:34:57: How much does that teach about power and inequality or meaningfully these

00:35:03: subjects?".

00:35:04: I think we need to read those two reports together because you cannot look at diversity issue without looking in the lack of diversity of thought And i don't think one can be fixed with out other.

00:35:15: The report AQE did is simply bringing these two together a little bit to say that you don't exist on opposing sides.

00:35:24: I think they exist in the same side and if their idea's fix discipline, then it need be seen together.

00:35:31: Yeah!

00:35:31: And your point this self-selection bias of reinforcing feedback lip we've identified as well in our own research.

00:35:40: We can even see it, I guess on the media.

00:35:42: some of them most prominent economists today Even people from the mainstream.

00:35:47: you know a Nobel winning economist that's kind of got into a spat with The Economist magazine because he is being more critical Of these mainstream ideas.

00:35:55: now You had Angus Deaton Joseph Stiglitz Thomas Piketty and wealth inequality for example And so your seeing this people doing different things But then you're not being able to engage with that in the curriculum.

00:36:09: Or as you had also mentioned, sometimes we've actually even got go outside of economics because there's this barrier and it is gatekeeping within economics.

00:36:17: just study those kind of questions And therefore the economics journals are producing a research that might be able answer these question.

00:36:24: It getting lost.

00:36:25: So economics seems to me its not going get out at this feedback loop if doesn't gage With issues like what your been speaking about.

00:36:31: Yes As you mentioned, we did the launch in April and we tried to have like diversity.

00:36:38: Different people represented at the launch as well in terms of having employers there regulators that government.

00:36:46: it was chaired by Yuan Yang who's an MP whose been very vocal about her interest in kind of reshaping what economics can do for students.

00:36:55: And We had Wendy Carlin on the panel Who runs Core Economics who's obviously very passionate about economics education.

00:37:02: And we had Andy Ross, who everyone knows is kind of... ...very present in this space still and we have Andy Smith from the QAA.. ..and then myself having a conversation with what can be done with the discipline?

00:37:19: What needs to be done if anything needs to been done!

00:37:22: There IS consensus amongst people outside academia.

00:37:27: really I think it is academics who have more in-fighting amongst these different schools of thought and what we're going to call something.

00:37:36: And I don't mean to disparage that, because I have very strong opinions on what should be called what?

00:37:44: And I am also in this academic space.

00:37:47: but i think sometimes when you just step back from it... ...and then looking at undergraduate education especially need a stepback for me.. You know like can continue the fight among yourselves sure But when you're looking at what an economic student should be taught in their first year of undergraduate and the second day of undergraduate, What skills they should come out with?

00:38:06: I think everyone has very similar ideas.

00:38:08: Of what skill students need to be taught.

00:38:12: And so i think that reception was like...I Think people working outside the academic sector were like oh this is a great idea.

00:38:21: Why doesn't it exist yet Whereas academics are more hesitant?

00:38:26: So, but they're also constrained by their own kind of like.

00:38:29: you mentioned the research excellence framework and journal rankings an admin.

00:38:34: And it's someone who wants to do research doesn't want to deal with this kind of everyday constraint that is being put upon different departments?

00:38:43: Yeah so we wanted create a space where were listening to professionals.

00:38:48: It not something when we have students around discipline Its just student get to mention preferences in conversation with the professional sector and with that academic sector, bring those two together a little bit.

00:39:02: And represent student interests in conversation instead of trying to make something that would be run exclusively by students.

00:39:12: Yeah I wondered do you notice difference between kind more senior academics and maybe younger ones.

00:39:23: This is purely my kind of anecdotal experience myself, I've been told there's almost a curve.

00:39:29: like those early in their career might be interested in doing more but they get sort of worn down by the system.

00:39:39: you're going to feel challenged to anyone that's coming in and trying to change it.

00:39:46: You've built your entire career on these models, theories.

00:39:49: maybe some of them have been called into question?

00:39:52: And then Peru when you get the end of your career.

00:39:54: so I heard once we got our Nobel Prize thats where you can start being more critical!

00:39:59: We are seeing this at least.

00:40:01: I don't know if you noticed that This is one theory i'm working on looking as well.

00:40:07: think about who or potential allies here for

00:40:10: I've honestly found some of the best allies in senior, older academics.

00:40:15: Definitely not ones who have won a Nobel but just... Who believe they had their space and that students now are kind getting the short end of stick And don't have this place in same way.

00:40:26: And i've met some most lovely like Older white men essentially who acknowledge that I'm an old White man.

00:40:34: All these doors open to me.

00:40:36: Tell me what door you want me to open for You.

00:40:39: and just seeing that in practice has been so exciting, you know?

00:40:42: And it makes me want to keep going.

00:40:44: Yeah!

00:40:44: Often the kind of inertia we see is from... I would not say early career ones but slightly more earlier career ones like the forties where people are scared.

00:40:57: That's when you've finally found some stability Just found some grounding Then your'e scared trying to uproot this.

00:41:05: We're not even trying to be uprooted by saying anything to challenge anything, I think that time becomes a bit more tricky.

00:41:13: So obviously there's the classic student energy you have for awhile and then once become older.

00:41:19: hopefully we don't know what it will look like from generation of academics now if they'll have same stability.

00:41:27: but i think ones in middle are working towards last few stages where you really dont want mess up.

00:41:37: Yeah, and yeah.

00:41:38: That's a really good point.

00:41:39: And at the same time as you said even You know that security of tenure is no longer there in a lot of academic positions.

00:41:46: We're seeing warmer pressure.

00:41:47: As I mentioned university finances are under pressures.

00:41:50: students don't want to take on so much debt.

00:41:52: But then it's good to hear that you are finding some old white men On your side.

00:41:57: It's encouraging.

00:41:58: So maybe they'll be more listening.

00:42:00: Which brings us To The Next Point which Is Actually Feel free to talk about anything else.

00:42:05: but i wanted also give time to talk about, you know what your hopes are personally for this and importantly as well how others can get involved other students but maybe other people that want to support us.

00:42:15: So we would love to hear from everyone who is interested.

00:42:19: so we've formally launched our membership offer in April... Okay!

00:42:22: ...so that's where the launch was.

00:42:23: just say that now you can sign up as a member so anyone could go into the Association of Quality Economics website and become a member to someone who is an early career researcher, mid-career researcher however senior you are.

00:42:39: We're looking for members and I think this the perfect time if i say so myself but that's because we just beginning to form our working groups.

00:42:49: So If You Get Involved Now ,you kind of get a shape.

00:42:52: what your body looks like .You don't have to accept...I mean..we would want it always where its continuous process.

00:42:59: But right now in very early stages forming the group that will look at What could the accreditation look like?

00:43:06: And that's a group you're putting together now.

00:43:08: So anybody interested in having to say there would be very welcome to join and The memberships are also open to departments, You know and they're all so open to employers.

00:43:20: So anyone who also just thinks They know the right people the people who are interested in this Sector we would love to hear from you Just if you want introduce us to someone new Mm-hmm introduced.

00:43:30: as to Someone Who has thoughts on This Who Has the ability to help spread the word.

00:43:36: Currently, we're looking at doing stalls on student campuses getting students signed up but looking a different model such as even having university departments sign-up students as members and or sign their department is member.

00:43:49: And We want to focus on job resources because obviously that's big part of what students get scared about Doing.

00:43:56: perhaps mentorship programs with most senior academics in younger students.

00:44:01: So if any of that sounds interesting Also, if you want to write a blog.

00:44:04: This is open for people across all levels as well.

00:44:08: who... If you wanna write blogs specifically about the economics education sector in UK or another country and what the UK can learn from it.

00:44:15: but if we have thoughts on this We've got an open running blog series now that would help us And also going very soon start hiring new student staff positions.

00:44:27: So I mean That's smaller.

00:44:30: We're welcoming all and many members, students staff would be one or two.

00:44:34: But still if anybody is interested in this to that extent he could send us a hey keep me in mind.

00:44:41: So right now we have students across student stuff board members like myself And also we have fellowship for students That's rotating every two years.

00:44:50: so at the launch introduce the fellows trying to expand more beyond London of only having students from London, only having academics from London connecting with departments across the UK.

00:45:05: Yeah our most recent interesting conversations were with Edinburgh.

00:45:09: so...

00:45:10: Okay nice yeah.

00:45:12: one more question just to clarify as well.

00:45:13: of course I know that school systems are different in the different countries within the U.K but this would cover the entire U. K system AQE?

00:45:23: Yes That's the hope for now like i think in terms different for each space, but yeah, AQA is supposed to cover across the UK.

00:45:34: Wonderful!

00:45:35: Yeah.

00:45:35: and so in terms of what you're hoping for... Well first of all congratulations.

00:45:39: this was fabulous.

00:45:40: it would be interesting if we could hear how that came about?

00:45:47: What seems like a logical thing which should exist into being.

00:45:55: You know, what is the timeline that you're hoping for?

00:45:58: I know you mentioned there are working groups.

00:46:00: That will come together now to think about what this accreditation could look like and then at some point we'll be going out actually doing the accrediting.

00:46:06: so yeah can you talk a little bit?

00:46:08: So

00:46:09: kind of technical step for that.

00:46:10: it's actually rooted in membership.

00:46:12: Okay!

00:46:12: We need enough members To apply with government education board become an accreditor.

00:46:20: It needs feel as if you represent discipline.

00:46:22: So I think we have a threshold for a thousand members or something that we hope to hit soon, then they will be able to apply.

00:46:30: The root two accreditation is through membership and if you don't have the membership it doesn't make sense in being a creditor If not actually just kind of democratically representing what people are interested in right?

00:46:43: It's good this steps has been laid out for us That way But i think answers gave very logistics based about what would like see from people But what I would like to see from people is just an interest in economics education, because i think right now there's so many people working on economics systems.

00:47:04: Yes

00:47:05: and i think the biggest way i truly believe to influence change Is through education?

00:47:10: Because we're missing out on So Many students who could otherwise be a part of this story.

00:47:15: Be A Part Of This.

00:47:16: Finding The Next Policy That You Want Finding The next group that is going To Change Something who kind of get pushed out of the discipline, don't think to enter it.

00:47:25: Who go into politics or anthropology instead?

00:47:28: And I think if we build a discipline that speaks to them then... We could really see students are passionate and students within economics who're passionate put their head down in study.

00:47:39: You know like If i didn't have the rethinking economic group That existed..I would never thought this is something I can do Like This not something an individual student will come up say It is something that only happens more collectively.

00:47:53: Yeah, absolutely.

00:47:54: and I think yeah.

00:47:54: obviously rethinking economics incredibly important.

00:47:57: And thank you also for reminding us of their work.

00:48:00: as we've As i mentioned offline We have an interview with another activist from the group so it's good to see how The seeds are starting coming together into concrete.

00:48:12: Is this like now?

00:48:13: There a clear thing there people can do right.

00:48:16: They could be a member.

00:48:17: they help advance this forward.

00:48:19: So yeah, wonderful to hear all about it!

00:48:22: Do you have any feedback for our project or anything that you think we could look into next?

00:48:28: Yeah now I think your project is super interesting...I mean a bit selfish but i love that you had me on as a student and I would like see more students because its really lovely here from the authors.

00:48:45: That students are in this space as well is exciting.

00:48:47: Is a student?

00:48:49: Yeah, I just said the word student too many times.

00:48:51: No But it is exciting to see that there's others doing work and i think you already mentioned that You're going beyond economics To have people from different disciplines who work on similar ideas.

00:49:02: right yes So i think seeing that will be very exciting.

00:49:06: yeah Thank you.

00:49:07: whenever in india i used to tutor A level economics And I think a lot of my interest in economics got solidified from teaching it.

00:49:16: When you teach it, You have to prepare yourself To answer questions and that became the first time i had to question the assumptions myself Right?

00:49:24: Like why does this curve go here?

00:49:26: Why is this curve going there?

00:49:28: And I was like...I can't read The teacher who just responds with.

00:49:31: That's Just how It Is.

00:49:32: So now I Have to Teach Myself Why This Curve Goes Here Just to make some side pocket money when I had just finished my A-levels and it was COVID lockdown.

00:49:43: So, doing that really made me question.

00:49:46: so i think thats why this education space is super critical

00:49:52: Absolutely!

00:49:52: And critical being the operative word right?

00:49:55: That an economics education has to encourage critical thinking.

00:49:58: This is another finding which came out of study where employers say Conn was unfortunately sometimes lacking because they might not have the education you were trying to give your students, which is... You're welcome to question this.

00:50:09: You are welcome.

00:50:10: think beyond these assumptions.

00:50:12: Salka I want be appreciative of your time.

00:50:14: This is really interesting and very excited about your project.

00:50:18: We will share it far and wide And everyone at SOS and AQE initiative Lots of luck with it, and looking forward to also following.

00:50:26: And maybe at some point we can even have a follow-up conversation about how its going.

00:50:30: Thank

00:50:30: you so much for having me I hope to see as an AQE member as well

00:50:35: Definitely!

00:50:36: Thank You Shloka.

00:50:36: Have a good evening

00:50:37: thankyou

00:50:43: Bye bye on our website at TheVisibleHandcuffs.com, where you can also find the show notes to this episode and more about the project with that Thank You for listening And I hope see you next time.