Episode 01: On the Fight to Bring Economics into the 21st Century - with Kate Raworth

00:00:04: Those things, so when one thing changes another change.

00:00:13: I get really deeply frustrated that there's a generation of young people coming to university every year and they sign up to study economics And in this country take out big loan.

00:00:34: They dedicate three years their life to studying a subject they think.

00:00:39: and what upsets me is someone say I've read doughnut economics, i was so excited.

00:00:44: So we went to universities study economics but

00:00:47: They're

00:00:47: teaching me everything that you said was the old way?

00:00:50: I've heard that so many times.

00:00:52: We cannot give up on the university's Young people today born into poly crisis...I mean The idea that they would study that old system.

00:01:03: it really makes me mad.

00:01:05: These are going to be the people who are taking the world through the twenty-first century, they deserve a mindset so that they can come up with in really challenging policies that lie ahead.

00:01:16: I mean our generation and not giving them their policies but at least let's give them there the mind set of foundations so that have even half chance creating kinds of policies needed.

00:01:26: we cannot get upon universities At the same time, we can't sit and wait for that.

00:01:31: That would be deeply responsible to say well just start with a next generation And let this generation carry on with the same old thinking.

00:01:37: My personal approach is To go where the energy is.

00:01:42: I am far more energized to keep doing This work if i'm working With people who get it Who are doing It?

00:01:47: Who've adopted it and Can demonstrate in practice.

00:01:56: Hello and welcome to invisible handcuffs A podcast that seeks to expose The economic ideology driving our crisis and identify ways we can free ourselves from its chains.

00:02:06: My name is Katie Shields, I'm a recovering mainstream economist and your host in this inaugural episode.

00:02:13: i'm joined by economist Kate Reworth author of the best-selling two thousand seventeen book donut economics seven ways to think like a twenty first century economist.

00:02:22: In that book, Rayworth put forward the goal for humanity this century should be to move away from endless growth towards thriving within means of a living planet.

00:02:31: But Donut Economics wasn't just about setting new goals.

00:02:34: Rayworth who studied economics at Oxford was calling it change the discipline of economics From ending its obsession with GDP To moving away form models that deify markets while ignoring nature and care to treating individuals as selfish, self-interested profit maximizers.

00:02:52: For her research, Rayworth drew on the best of heterodox economic thinking which for me coming from mainstream was a revelation and it's fair to say that kicked off movement In our interview we talk about many surprising ways people are picking up and running with ideas in cities communities businesses around world but also discuss barriers where mainstream economics is still the language policymaking.

00:03:17: Kate teaches Donut Economics in the Environmental Studies Department of Oxford University and she tells us just how hugely popular her courses are, on how young people are demanding fresh thinking.

00:03:27: Yet head over to the mainstream economics department.

00:03:30: you'll certainly not find your book or reading list!

00:03:32: So we discuss the importance of reclaiming economics at the university while Kate does say that this is something we must continue to strive for.

00:03:40: We also cannot wait for academia to catch up.

00:03:43: so it's our job to seek ways especially young people, play a role in rewiring our economies now so that they start to work on the service of life rather than live working and serve as an economy.

00:03:57: And then ask Kate if she has advice for her project?

00:04:00: You can listen here what you had to say whether you've read Donut Economics or not.

00:04:04: I hope we will find this interview both informative and inspiring.

00:04:08: with that please join me in welcoming economist Kate Rayworth.

00:04:13: Welcome Kate.

00:04:14: thankyou so much for joining us.

00:04:16: My pleasure, looking forward to chatting.

00:04:20: Great yeah well on that I'd love to just kind of jump right in.

00:04:24: if that's okay it is nine or almost ten years since your kind of rallying call the bring economics into the twenty-first century.

00:04:32: so i'm talking about obviously the publication of Donut Economics.

00:04:35: um but looking back sort over this period what surprised you most?

00:04:40: About The Influence Or The Impact That This Book Has Had Around The World?

00:04:45: So first it's kind of wild to think that is nearly ten years, I mean its nine years right?

00:04:48: It came out in April twenty seventeen.

00:04:53: By far the biggest surprise Is that people have picked up and put into practice.

00:05:00: i never imagined That!

00:05:02: And i had say thank god i didn't imagine that because that would've made it Intimidating...I'd have never ever finished writing a book.

00:05:09: if I thought it was going to become something that was used by town councils and used in companies, and used the fashion industry.

00:05:15: And taught in schools...I mean i would have been overwhelmed with responsibility for getting everything right there!

00:05:25: It's incredible how people picked up.

00:05:28: Well,

00:05:32: yeah.

00:05:33: It is incredible and that's obviously one of the reasons we've invited you as our first guest because it was a thing I picked up which started me on my journey to wanting to reclaim economics.

00:05:44: so thank-you for that!

00:05:53: So I had actually attended a talk that you gave to the Club of Rome way back.

00:05:59: But were you student?

00:06:01: Were you already studying economics and where was this in your life ?

00:06:06: so i was well past studying, I'd been working as an economic consultant ,I had just recently gone back to university to do a Masters in Environmental Economics quite different, though than the kind of ecological economics that is an influence for donut economics.

00:06:24: And I was at a period—I just had my third child and I wasn't in a period of feeling like this isn't working.

00:06:33: what we're trying to do and fixing the climate.

00:06:36: so it's open to new things but still quite a revelation from me and took me quite long time.

00:06:46: watching you kind of give your talk thinking, yeah.

00:06:50: No way!

00:06:54: I'd be working with multinational corporations and sort of trying to convince them take tiny little steps towards their climate goals.

00:07:02: so it took me a while...I didn't know maybe at the time how ready i was for it but very grateful because I mean, get into this little bit more for me.

00:07:14: It was kind of like a best-of all the alternatives that you don't get at university and it really just made me hungry to want to know more about... You know?

00:07:26: The alternatives are out there.

00:07:27: That's great!

00:07:31: So we will talk in what you said putting into practice which i think is so important.

00:07:36: And where'd love

00:07:38: go today?

00:07:39: because people are still picking up the book.

00:07:41: And then they're saying, okay how can we implement it?

00:07:44: So I'd love to get there but maybe if i could go back a little bit because our series is about you know exploring where and kind of why economics has gone wrong.

00:07:53: Economics being...still uh..I think its fair to say The or one-of-the If not the most influential discipline when it comes to policies When It Comes To Decision Making Yeah!

00:08:04: ...and ..And I Know That You Had Also Like I Did Studied Economics.

00:08:07: Even You've Studied PPE.

00:08:10: for those that don't know politics, economics and philosophy at Oxford.

00:08:14: And the degree is called The Degree That Runs Britain because so many prime ministers, chancellors newspaper editors study it.

00:08:23: So can you kind of talk about like what were you hoping for in studying economics?

00:08:29: Was there a moment when you realised this was not I had signed up to do?

00:08:34: Can You Talk About That?

00:08:36: Yeah, I didn't.

00:08:37: so i went to university in nineteen ninety

00:08:39: and

00:08:40: I hadn't studied economics at school.

00:08:41: I was new to politics and philosophy and economics.

00:08:45: So I was on a game of catch-up?

00:08:47: I was surrounded by people who done economics A level right.

00:08:50: And so the beginning.

00:08:51: I was just trying to catch up and learn and take it all in and I loved It!

00:08:55: I love the theories The frameworks...I was absorbing it All reading the textbook On my summer holiday before going to University.

00:09:05: The reasons that I've been drawn to this, environmental issues.

00:09:09: I cared about the hole in the ozone layer... ...I'd heard of the greenhouse effect on news in the nineteen eighties.... ...I caret about the hideous famine in Ethiopia in the mid-nineteen eighties,... ...the inequalities and the world!

00:09:24: I wanted their tools be part of changing the world... ..in a way many young people idealistically want to do.

00:09:32: And I knew that economics was the mother tongue of public policy.

00:09:35: I thought if i have this tool under my belt,I can help change

00:09:38: things.".

00:09:39: It was gradual but I realized for example... ...I wanted to study environmental issues.

00:09:45: There was no paper in Oxford University That you could opt into To study the environment.

00:09:51: there were just no options.

00:09:51: so The closest I could get Was a subject called Public Economics and one week we studied classic story of what if a factory is pouring gloop into the river, should the government tax them or set a quota?

00:10:04: That was it.

00:10:04: that was extent to the environmental reach of my degree and I realized people could actually go through their entire economics degree at university not opting in for paper come out with degrees.

00:10:17: an economist having never touched anything about living world we didn't talk energy materials environment degradation close to my heart, so I was frustrated that the thing i'd come to the university for was totally missing.

00:10:34: equally social issues.

00:10:36: We would always start conversations about inequality or distribution as saying taking initial distribution is given and yet I wanted to talk about human rights and what should be a foundational starting point for people?

00:10:50: And the real clincher for me though came when I finished my undergraduate degree And the first question I was asked, what is human development and how should we best measure it?

00:11:27: But it was the first time, and I was into my fourth year of studying economics.

00:11:31: It was the First Time that anybody who'd asked me to reflect on what does success look like?

00:11:37: The first three years in my Economics degree we never talked about What's the goal?

00:11:41: What is success And how should We measure it?

00:11:43: because it Was just tacit as implicit.

00:11:45: it was measured In GDP and the growth Of the economy.

00:11:51: That wasn't even the end of the question.

00:11:52: We didn't begin by questioning it, we never really talked about that.

00:11:55: It was just implicit economic growth as a result of these policies and so this is success.

00:12:01: So when I studied development economics And i study the work of Amartya Sen who starts not with the market but human capabilities in what every human should have The capability to be part Of her included in a democratic no sorry sen said Every human being should have the capacity To participate In society With dignity And I was just really struck.

00:12:23: Why is it only when we come to studying economics for developing countries that we actually talk about the fundamentals?

00:12:32: Surely this is all economic, high-income countries or so called developed nations.

00:12:37: and now began question as well why are you talking about philosophical social moral foundations where we're only talking about goals in low income country should be applied right?

00:12:50: And when we don't talk about it, doesn't mean that's not there.

00:12:53: The economics textbook I was first told to read is called Positive Economics and It Doesn't Mean.

00:12:57: Positive Is As In Thumbs Up Good Economics.

00:12:59: It means Not Normative!

00:13:01: Its Value-Free.

00:13:02: This Is Objective.

00:13:03: That's complete nonsense...it's not value free.

00:13:06: but if you Don't Express the Values If You Don't Talk About Them You're Just Leaving them Totally Implicit & Unrecognized.

00:13:13: So I realized that all the economics I'd studied was blind to the fact it's full of values, but claiming to be value-free.

00:13:20: And so by the end of studying development economics and being surrounded then with people doing development studies... ...with people doing anthropology or sociology they were talking about power!

00:13:33: All sorts things are completely missing from my economics degrees.

00:13:36: I came out here of studying economics realising Hello, I'm an economist because i had just become very aware of all the dynamics that were missing from the world view and was not proud.

00:13:52: I

00:13:54: can really emphasise it as a development economics elective which also made me question right at my back to those two groups who are taking.

00:14:07: Some of this is sort of questioning what I've been learning these past few years, but it's kind of absurd that you only come into those questions if we take an elective route and its not in the core.

00:14:21: It still isn't in the course as much of what has taught

00:14:25: us.

00:14:26: so... You mentioned human development goals then went on to actually work with United Nations Development Programme.

00:14:33: So how was your experience the real world and in compared to what you had learned.

00:14:38: And then, on what you were seeing in real life working in development with so-called developing countries?

00:14:46: So when I left university.

00:14:48: my first job was working in Zanzibar by the Overseas Development Institute.

00:14:53: i was posted to work as a civil servant of The Government Of Zanziba In the Ministry of Trade Industries & Marketing.

00:14:59: It Was The Most Phenomenal Experience I ended up working with craftspeople across the islands, seeing if these people who had basic craft skills that they were making for the local economy.

00:15:11: If there was any way they could benefit from the tourism... From my point of view ravaging the islands!

00:15:17: It was such an assault on traditional life but a phenomenal source of possible income.

00:15:24: so can people in the villages get any benefit?

00:15:29: the tourism that's coming.

00:15:30: So I worked with craftspeople to see if we could get that opportunity for them, but i learned so much from particularly the women and the women's groups that I sat with...I learnt Swahili..so I can sit on a mat where they're in their village and talk to them!

00:15:42: And realized that the resilience they had many brilliant barefoot entrepreneurs who'd literally walk across the island barefoot with beautiful pots on their heads that they've made.... They depended on The forest?

00:15:57: On Their community?

00:15:58: For everything and they made it work.

00:16:00: So I saw the commons in practice before i'd ever heard about The Commons, I don't even have a tragedy of the comments because that's what you get taught in economics.

00:16:06: And yet I saw thriving commons impractice In these communities...I then went from Zanzibar being there for three years to very different island Manhattan To work on the United Nations Development Programme On Human Development Report Which had so influenced me.

00:16:24: But then I was also really frustrated there because when we created that, We had the human development index which would come out every year and celebrate Which country is at the top of the HDI?

00:16:33: And again it's measuring life expectancy literacy enrollment rates an Averaging comfort person.

00:16:41: It's not perfect but it was much closer to what matters than just The GDP of the country.

00:16:49: Countries that were At the top Of the hdi in those days.

00:16:52: What countries like Norway Australia and so I remember, part of the communications team went on.

00:16:59: The day it was announced that they had to go on sort-of drive time radio in Australia or Norway come on air And I'd be saying yeah congratulations your country's come out top of the HDI.

00:17:10: They would say we're the best country in the world.

00:17:12: And I'm sitting there thinking Norway.

00:17:15: Norway exports oil To the world!

00:17:19: Australia has these massive mining projects.

00:17:23: These countries have huge environmental footprints, and yet we're telling them they are top of the human development index.

00:17:32: They're most successful countries in the world because it makes no mention of the environmental impact.

00:17:38: so I became really frustrated that were celebrating what you do for humans but not taking any account how you are undermining the living systems of the planet in the process of doing that.

00:17:52: And I started to sort of become an internal wrestler and challenger to the HDI, uh...and i know when I left ultimately embodied into the donut but it was incredibly helpful to realize.

00:18:07: y'know The metrics by which we measure success really matter whether it's just GDP of a nation, or the human aspects.

00:18:15: We need better metrics that make visible everything we should be taking into account with

00:18:21: countries.".

00:18:23: You went on to Oxfam and then you get to writing Donut Economics... When I mentioned at the beginning people are actually implementing this which is fantastic as am trying in my community.

00:18:37: There was quote saying donut economics would serve practice first, theorize second.

00:18:43: The theory is still there though in the mainstream economics courses and so I was wondering that did you try to do the theory route first?

00:18:55: So firstly of all one of the reasons i wrote Donate Economics because after I worked at the UN ,I moved to Oxford for Oxfam .

00:19:02: I became a mother of twins right?

00:19:03: ?So the unpaid caring economy was really presenting itself to me in stereo with twins in two thousand seven, two thousand eight and watch the global financial meltdown.

00:19:15: So there I am with these two tiny babies and watching all the economists coming on the screen saying yes we're going to rewrite economics to make it reflect real financial realities in light of this

00:19:23: crisis.".

00:19:23: And i just remember thinking oh really are we just going to re-write economics now?

00:19:28: Just for that!

00:19:30: And everything else stays the same.

00:19:31: well just bring in the real functions of money and banks no way...and it rallied me to want to come back towards economics.

00:19:39: so all the economics I had never been taught.

00:19:44: Talking to friends, picking up tip bits... Oh Herman Daley what's that?

00:19:47: Wow!

00:19:48: It flipped my mind and i discover ecological economics.

00:19:51: imagine if the economy is a subsystem of the living world foundational concept.

00:19:56: it blew me away.

00:19:57: somebody mentioned by a woman called Danela Meadows thinking in systems ...and I said well what was that?

00:20:01: ?

00:20:01: And I went and read that it totally blew my mind !And I thought why wasn't I taught?

00:20:06: Systems thinking.

00:20:07: this is the most brilliant tool.

00:20:09: So I started accumulating and assembling these amazing ideas, the work of Ellen Ostrom on The Commons that it's a triumph not just to tragedy.

00:20:18: Just bringing together this amazing idea feminist economics And i wanted make them dance in same page.

00:20:26: they became the foundations of a new mindset, not that you had to either be a feminist economist going towards all the feminist economics conferences and writing in The Feminist Economics journals.

00:20:34: And you're part of that community or an ecological economists over here.

00:20:36: but what happens when we bring them together?

00:20:39: And offer them Not as many separate critiques Of the mainstream But as I knew proposition for the whole.

00:20:44: That's was my goal in donut economics.

00:20:46: So the theory is out there.

00:20:47: it's been their four decades right system thinking.

00:20:51: Danela Meadows Was As You well know wrote In the nineteen seventies Herman Daley.

00:20:56: So I wanted to celebrate all these ideas that have been around for a long time.

00:21:00: Where was this going to get traction?

00:21:02: Rather, and that's where i realized universities aren't even beginning to bring this into the curriculum because it's foundational...I think its deeply challenging.

00:21:13: when you say take the model of the economy-the circular flow diagram every undergraduates taught as biggest image in our economy It's completely missing any mention of the living world.

00:21:23: What if we drew a circle around it and say, it's contained within the living word?

00:21:27: It is an open system with in a closed system that is totally transformative.

00:21:32: so its foundationally challenging ideas are being regenerative by design circular economy distributed by design using systems thinking to think about the economy.

00:21:42: complexity.

00:21:44: I just saw this isn't you know?

00:21:46: i wrote Donut economics actually intending Make a call for universities to update the curriculum.

00:21:53: That's what it was.

00:21:53: It was my piece of advocacy as a frustrated economic student saying, What if these ideas were put at the heart of the curriculum?

00:22:02: I actually got a pretty shut door response from universities.

00:22:06: Meanwhile I'm getting in contact with so many people who are just getting on and doing this.

00:22:12: And they're like, yeah!

00:22:12: Yeah...I love Donut Economics.

00:22:14: It basically brings together everything that i am already doing.

00:22:16: it wasn't a revelation to these folks but you've actually now given us an overarching framework But they were actually putting into practice.

00:22:26: Yeah, look yeah we're creating cooperatives and associations.

00:22:29: We are making sure that their regenerative by design By using you know part of recycling and refurbishing materials.

00:22:35: We're making them distributed by design because the way designed it just was second nature to these folks who were doing It.

00:22:40: so I realized That rather than trying to persuade theorists To get on this Just hang out with a practitioner's Because They already Get The Theory they are taking it forward in practice.

00:22:54: and the front edge of this work is to be found in practice.

00:22:57: It's going to take maybe even decades for the textbooks to catch up with where the practices, so if you want to be at the cutting-edge in the minds and practices of people who are embodying it.

00:23:15: That's why I say twenty-first century economics is going to be practiced first, and theorised later.

00:23:20: one day the textbooks will catch up but they aren't nowhere close

00:23:23: yet.".

00:23:25: Now i fully agree with that as well.

00:23:28: infact Survey by rethinking economics, looking at the curriculum in.

00:23:35: In The UK kind of speaks to that right most of them major universities I think including Oxford Glasgow up near where I'm from and not getting any of this yet into the curriculum.

00:23:46: no ecological economics Not even much on the financial crisis.

00:23:48: so I fully agree and also, like i agree with you as well.

00:23:52: It seems to be that it's happening almost everywhere except the mainstream.

00:23:56: You mentioned sort of businesses...I know there has been a lot of work done on cities.

00:23:59: can you talk more about what is implementation?

00:24:02: What does doing the doughnut look like in some communities that your working with?

00:24:06: Yeah so when my book came out I started doing book talks and speaking at festivals, And i did a rail trip around Germany.

00:24:17: Lots of presentations!

00:24:18: And I was imagining...I'll spend much the rest year just presenting these ideas and trying to see if can get any traction..and in fact thinking about doing a little roadshow or putting together theater production and being very playful on stage telling it as story.

00:24:36: What happened at these book talks was people would come up to me afterwards and say, I love these ideas.

00:24:42: I'm actually putting it into practice.

00:24:44: I am a teacher –I've already introduced in my classroom– I don't care that this is not on the curriculum!

00:24:47: This what students should be learning or... I have started it in my company… I put them on board table.

00:24:53: we are now meeting around this doughnut asking ourselves how can our business help bring humanity of the donut?

00:24:59: I'm a town councillor, I am mayor.

00:25:01: Can we do this here?

00:25:02: Do have to wait for the whole world can just get started doing it here?

00:25:06: We are community group and want bring into our existing transition towns work or set up groups around them.

00:25:12: I was blown away!

00:25:14: I make games about the donor, graffiti artists... Just blew me away from people playing with us.

00:25:20: so there is something strong about visual means that inspiring people Frightens or boars many people but when you stick the word donut in front of it Everybody knows.

00:25:31: It's a bit playful and people get involved.

00:25:34: one Of the places that its so sorry.

00:25:37: So people yeah, people get evolved And I was just overwhelmed by the number of people coming up to me saying we want to do this But as a single person there is nothing i could Do with out?

00:25:47: I couldn't.

00:25:47: it was just overwhelming.

00:25:48: That's what made Me realize I needed To set Up an organization.

00:25:52: In fact One lovely Person who organized my Tori in Italy said to me, you have a responsibility for the legacy of this idea.

00:26:00: And I thought oh my goodness!

00:26:02: I do need to set up an organization.

00:26:05: and when i came up with the idea that it being an action lab That sounded light enough and playful enough and exploratory enough that I thought like...I could do.

00:26:13: there's gonna find a co-founder found brilliant co founder Colotta Sands.

00:26:18: we're still working together today and we're six years on, seven years on with Donut Economics Action Lab.

00:26:24: We exist to help connect and bring together and co-inspire and learn with practitioners who are putting Donut economics into practice in education ,in local government in towns and cities around the world .

00:26:37: In national governments in different sectors from fashion to highways to tourism to health care um... in community groups.

00:26:46: So in academia, so we're working with practitioners who are showing up the same.

00:26:50: We want to do this brilliant!

00:26:51: We'd love to connect you with other people like you because there's nothing as inspiring.

00:26:55: is someone whose aiming that thing your wanting too and look they already doing it.

00:27:00: let make tools but we can use them.

00:27:01: we can share out without us unless he where how we learn on this together.

00:27:05: so that's the action lab one of the areas which really had a lot traction I say his with local governments around world often in cities but sometimes in towns and rural districts.

00:27:15: So, in Oxfordshire where I happen to live... In Amsterdam, in Ipoh, Malaysia, Almonte or Chile it's taken off And local governments have taken the concept.

00:27:25: What if we actually envision meeting all of our people within the means that they're living here?

00:27:30: Living well making sure not to undermine the planet Or the rest?

00:27:35: humanity can use this as a tool for new vision.

00:27:41: Can we use it as a tool for assessing projects that we want to do?

00:27:44: can We measure our progress towards this goal over time?

00:27:48: so they've created a Portrait of the city or county through the lenses of the doughnut and now saying you know Through to twenty forty, we're gonna keep on measuring.

00:27:57: This becomes our primary accountability.

00:27:59: Not what's the GDP of the City But rather are we beginning to meet the needs of all people?

00:28:04: Are we coming back within the means at The Living Planet?

00:28:07: So its being adopted Now by Over Fifty Towns cities, counties districts around the world by the local government.

00:28:15: They've actually publicly placed it in the heart of their plan.

00:28:17: There's at least another fifty who are engaging and exploring it behind-the-scenes.

00:28:22: So we know that has become a really valuable tool amongst these policymakers.

00:28:26: And now starting in national government policy makers international governmental situations civil civil servants We've made her a tool for governmental policymakers.

00:28:36: they can see all of the seven ways to think, to be regenerative by design.

00:28:40: Distributed by design using systems thinking nurturing human nature.

00:28:44: here are policies around the world that we think reflect those aspirations.

00:28:48: so were really trying.

00:28:49: take concepts and show.

00:28:51: look there our policies in practice already bringing these into life.

00:28:58: yeah

00:28:59: I'm

00:29:00: happy to say where i am based.

00:29:02: we're also moving finally to the fact that you can see other cities doing it.

00:29:10: So, also I think takes away a lot of that barrier.

00:29:13: we've got The First Movers out there.

00:29:16: My experience as well is That people in this city are often ready and maybe even further than politicians.

00:29:24: But I have, you know...I've also experienced in the kind of background conversations that i'm having where that works and then sometimes maybe it doesn't work.

00:29:31: I was talking to one city- I won't mention their name In this case there's a politician really keen to take the doughnut Work with.

00:29:37: It gets into civil service And then the economics department which seems more old guard, neoclassical economists probably tending mail and not really wanting to or willing to sort of work with it.

00:29:52: And then, as I understand in this case could have kicked down the ranks until luckily ended up a junior female economist who did pick it experience that.

00:30:07: Well, that sounds very familiar and I think it's a really great example to remind all of us that institutions are not homogeneous.

00:30:13: people could say the city council said well you know The City Council is made up Of many departments within each one Many People who may have different opinions.

00:30:25: so Within every organization there Are Different Groups And In Every Case When The Donuts Been Adopted It Is Because Someone Maybe One Or Two People and their always identifiable has said, I think this is a great idea for this place right now.

00:30:42: They've brought it in.

00:30:42: they've got a conviction to try make this happen.

00:30:46: They then need to persuade their colleagues.

00:30:48: if it's going to be formally adopted by the city It's gonna have to pass The City Council with a majority vote, right?

00:30:54: So first that's the first job and of course they're kind Of people who say what is this?

00:30:58: doughnuts.

00:30:58: What are you talking about?

00:30:59: or You know always this too radical Or so you're going to face some challenge there.

00:31:04: And yet there were brilliant councillors on mayors Who've said come on let's do This and they persuaded their colleagues.

00:31:10: But then once you've got the concept adopted, as you say it might run into the economics department who are going to look at through an old economics lens if that's where they're coming from and just saying what is this?

00:31:20: This doesn't make sense.

00:31:21: It isn't far too normative or positive.

00:31:24: We already have all of these tools we need And even though there aren't any problems You'll be having elections.

00:31:31: What happens when politicians don't get re-elected?

00:31:33: The key civil servant moves on and gets rotated in another position To any idea.

00:31:39: trying to take root is going to face these challenges of change.

00:31:43: What I have seen, i would say the places where it's had the strongest traction.

00:31:48: and there are places where you know still in use after five six seven years that you've got both an elected politician who's a champion of it?

00:31:58: And speaking publicly about him That You've Got Civil Servants Some people within The Civil Servant Who Are Remaining There holding it and bringing in the civil service, making sense of that.

00:32:08: And then you've also got some kind community mobilisation clear public support for this.

00:32:13: when we have those three tiers I think its a far greater chance surviving political change, new events ,new ideas coming along.

00:32:25: they may seem to be tension between these groups but actually there's somehow holding each other into accountability.

00:32:35: So, yes.

00:32:36: Adopting a new idea bringing you know introducing a new paradigm really challenging work as Don Elameda has always said or Thomas Kuhn always says and this is how we start to make it happen.

00:32:48: And that's why we call ourselves an Action Lab.

00:32:50: We don't know How This Is Going To Work?

00:32:51: We're going with the practitioners we are following The Energy.

00:32:54: Let's See What We Learn About The Challenges That They're Encountering As They Go.

00:32:58: It

00:33:01: Seems To Me That The public perception, in fact I think there was a study recently of UK business people conducted incorporation with London School of Economics where...I think it's a large percent.

00:33:16: of business leaders in favour of the Donut as a goal, but they underestimated their colleagues or their peers' support for it.

00:33:24: That's right!

00:33:25: I've got on my desktop... It is called The Hidden Business Majority.

00:33:29: They found that eighty-six percent of business professionals in the UK support post growth business principles But believe only fifty three per cent of their peers do and over ninety percent of people interviewed believed businesses should follow economics principles.

00:33:47: I was blown away by this when it came out!

00:33:50: It's incredible, we hadn't had any interaction with them beforehand.

00:33:53: they just came out with this survey.

00:33:55: so and i think its a beautiful example that you ask people what do you thing?

00:34:01: the people say yeah...I think we should be following the principles.

00:34:04: our business should be aligned to meeting needs of all within means on planet but we often don't believe those around us are ready, so we're all systematically underestimating the readiness of everybody else.

00:34:18: That's really important inside other surveys who have found this too.

00:34:22: but also there is a difference between people and their values in their full understanding as human beings versus what they feel that can do or the incentives in their role of reporting on their quarterly reports and showing that they're delivering a growing margin, growing profits, growing market share every quarter.

00:34:45: So again this highlights the distinction between what the whole human sense is and realises needed versus the institutions we've inherited designed for very narrow boundary thinking to profit maximisation.

00:34:59: And that's why actually Donut Economics For Businesses I think it's all order!

00:35:04: Right?

00:35:04: For companies, it's tough because if those companies are whether they're privately owned or shareholder-owned.

00:35:11: If they are designed in their purpose... Their networks of relationships how they governs and how the finance is designed for maximizing profit which is a very typical business design.

00:35:23: I mean what else we have been doing.

00:35:25: but to be true.. If there designs that its going make them difficult It will make it really difficult for them to prioritize something else being regenerative and distributive by design, helping become a business as a vehicle for meeting the needs of all people within the means of the planet.

00:35:42: So I think we're going to find that many of the businesses that are prevalent today that are designed on very, very twentieth century shareholder maximizing value return model they believe aren't not the vehicles which will take business forward in the twenty first century where you need different kinds And maybe at too much of a jump, I think some companies won't be able to make it because they are so designed to maximize shareholder returns.

00:36:09: It's just too much for pivot To actually say we're going to deliver sufficient shareholder Returns We go and deliver Some kind of return but Actually our priority is Our purpose?

00:36:20: We need different businesses to do that.

00:36:23: Yeah yeah i can see.

00:36:26: you know That too is fantastic as well.

00:36:29: I encourage everyone to look at it, we're also using it our work in Vienna for new businesses or younger businesses are businesses that maybe not these huge organizations with their quarterly reporting and there's shareholders.

00:36:43: those have more flexibility but its those big organisations.

00:36:47: And you mentioned the institutional part of that's where I struggle a little bit because i can see on the one hand more and more people at an individual level or stepping out of this system right, trying to do something different.

00:37:04: And building up communities of practice.

00:37:06: whether it is around donut economics are well being economy which And then I see at the institutional level, sometimes things actually shifting away from where we need them to go.

00:37:15: Like if you take as mentioned the profit orientation which is written into the DNA of our economies.

00:37:21: it's written even in the way that our finance system works That governments are still prioritising finance Which requires returns and pensions that acquire these high returns.

00:37:35: So, I'm thinking that it's still at the institutional level where we have decision makers with these old models.

00:37:43: Right?

00:37:44: so...I don't know what you think about this and i've been talking to lots of people because I do agree with the practice part but there are three children in high school who want them And it does influence our decision makers.

00:38:07: We've been talking to some people say, okay you just need to bypass the universities and go straight into this decision maker but we still do have a lot of decision-makers in key roles kind of upholding these systems.

00:38:19: Do see away there that can move forward?

00:38:26: the economics as a discipline, that it's really time to move on or you know.

00:38:31: As mentioned before can we afford a couple of decades?

00:38:33: To wait for the textbooks change I guess would be my question too.

00:38:37: No We Can't Afford That and its actually one thing i noticed when ever im thinking about these issues is the place where I get angry.

00:38:43: I got really deeply frustrated.

00:38:48: there s generation of young people coming to university every year Sign up to study economics and in this country they take out a big loan And they dedicate three years of their life To studying your subject.

00:39:02: They think, what upsets me is someone say I've read Donut Economics so excited.

00:39:08: So we went to universities to study Economics but... ...they're teaching everything that you said was the old way!

00:39:13: I have heard it many times.

00:39:17: We cannot give-up on the Universities.

00:39:20: Young people today born into polycrisis, hearing it on the news all the time.

00:39:25: I mean my own children are now seventeen.

00:39:28: so they're thinking what do i want to study at university?

00:39:32: The idea that they would study that old system and peers of theirs will study... It really makes me mad!

00:39:40: These are going be people who take the world through the twenty first century.

00:39:45: They deserve a mindset, ways of thinking systems-thinking ecological basis for economics, they deserve to be given the foundations so that they can come up with really challenging policies that lie ahead.

00:40:00: I mean our generation are not giving them their policies but at least let's give them a mindset of foundation thrashing away and trying to convert mainstream economics departments.

00:40:17: I would just say where are the courses that you can do?

00:40:20: And people have started mapping, Where Are The Ecological Economics

00:40:24: Courses?,

00:40:25: Where Are All The Coursers In Systems Thinking?.

00:40:27: So go to where they're already being embraced.

00:40:31: Go study there!

00:40:32: What i cant bear is students sign up, go to a mainstream university.

00:40:36: They said well like...I raise my hand on it always ask what about sustainability angle and professor says im so glad your asking this question.

00:40:43: I am so fed up of them being used to ask that question.

00:40:47: This should be in the curriculum, they shouldn't have to be one who asks it from back-of-the-room.

00:40:50: every time and other students roll their eyes over here... They come with an environment question again!

00:40:55: It's just so way past the time!

00:40:59: So we HAVE TO change economic thinking move away from those mainstream degrees and thank goodness for rethinking economics that are, you know.

00:41:08: From within right?

00:41:09: The power of the students run with in assessing these curriculums saying You're not teaching us what we want to be taught.

00:41:15: I don't know any other discipline where the student turn up ready to study three or four years And then realise first thing they have do is dedicate their hours To actually lobbying change very curriculum while paying for the loan to do this at the same time.

00:41:29: I don't know any other discipline that has this going on and it's been going on for many years now, of course there is a massive disadvantage because students have got three years.

00:41:38: So that's not equal.

00:41:40: The student, they'll just be the turnover and then next bunch turn up.

00:41:42: so where I live in Oxford.

00:41:44: every year there is a new clutch of students come in saying would you come teach down at economics?

00:41:49: We want to give them a lecture by evening because it isn't on curriculum but being asked again outside of the curriculum.

00:41:58: I should add in here, of course not all students want to be taught this and i think economics brings together a particularly divergent group of people.

00:42:08: Some study economics because they want to join the system.

00:42:11: They want to part of it.

00:42:13: Teach me their skills, teach my mainstream language...I want to conform & become part that system now benefit from it.

00:42:18: And others don't wanna conform..they want transform ..They want to totally different Mindset.

00:42:24: they want to challenge the fundamentals of today's economy.

00:42:26: So you've got those students sitting side by side.

00:42:28: now most universities are graded.

00:42:31: They say that business school or university a graded ranked against each other.

00:42:35: What are the criteria for ranking?

00:42:37: The starting salary?

00:42:38: if your graduates so guess which one, they're going to lean towards.

00:42:41: we can lean toward teaching and and satisfying those who want to conform with the system, because a system will pay them a lot of money.

00:42:48: Or we're going to teach those who wants transform this system where jobs are actually few in far between more precarious at that moment as it hasn't got established.

00:42:55: so there's an inherent lean on business schools particularly towards the mainstream beacuse they'll get them the ranking.

00:43:03: So all goes back into incentives their institutions were part of.

00:43:08: We need change university degrees At the same time, we can't sit and wait for that.

00:43:13: That would be deeply responsible to say well just start with a next generation and let this generation carry on with the same old thinking.

00:43:21: My personal approach is To go where?

00:43:24: The energy is because I don't have the stamina or the willingness to spend my life banging on shut doors.

00:43:32: i am far more energized to keep doing This work if i'm working With people who get it who are doing It.

00:43:38: you've adopted it and can demonstrate it in practice.

00:43:42: And this is where I turned to Milton Friedman, right?

00:43:45: He said... Milton Friedmen the bad boy of neoliberal economics who from the nineteen forties was part of the Montpelerin society that wanted to make neoliberalism a new way of doing things.

00:43:55: and they succeeded.

00:43:56: so we should listen to them.

00:43:58: Milton Friedmann said almost word for word only crisis actual or perceived produces real change.

00:44:06: when that crisis occurs The actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around.

00:44:11: And then he goes on, and says this I believe is our basic function to develop alternative policies make sure they're existing and available until politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable.

00:44:26: So when a crisis occurs people turn to their ideas that lie around.

00:44:31: They can be lying in a book.

00:44:33: Margaret Thatcher famously pulled Hayek's book out of her handbag.

00:44:37: Or, why just leave them lying around?

00:44:39: Why not have them up and

00:44:40: running?".

00:44:41: And that's what we're doing at Donut Economics Action Lab.

00:44:43: Why not actually work with people who are ready to do this now—who get it?

00:44:46: —and they'll in a context... ...have an opportunity to start putting the policy into practice?

00:44:50: so you can say oh!

00:44:51: You want to run local government on distributive and regenerative policies.

00:44:56: here we go.

00:44:57: Here is one we could point out in Malaysia seeking to do that.

00:44:59: There was another in Amsterdam, there were others in Sweden or small towns.

00:45:06: We're just showing you this is already happening.

00:45:08: This has already normal in some places.

00:45:09: I think there's nothing so compelling as seeing people doing what he thought was impossible Already getting on with it.

00:45:16: As Amelia Earhart the incredible aviator said never interrupt somebody doing What You Said Couldn't Be Done.

00:45:22: So let's work With These Folks Let's Give Them Space and Let's Amplify, What They're Doing?

00:45:31: teach them the concepts of donor economics, and then point to places that are already putting into practice.

00:45:36: So they see this theory is not idealistic or utopian.

00:45:40: it's actually in practice in place And then can feel a conviction.

00:45:45: I'm learning skills for an economy that is emergent and determined work on new economy Not be sucked back-in To old ways of the old economy and told put my youthful ideas aside.

00:46:01: See how it makes me mad.

00:46:04: Oh, don't worry I get very much... It's nice to actually hear someone else getting mad.

00:46:08: so i dont feel like im alone screaming into my pillow about mainstream economics.

00:46:11: but no!

00:46:12: I also wanted to say, you know...I do work with Donut Economics.

00:46:17: Actually at a business school but outside of the main city.

00:46:21: it's small doing innovative worker around green businesses and one theory is that Donut economics will come into practice everywhere except in mainstream departments.

00:46:32: if we have enough alternatives out there will soon be just bypassing them completely and giving people the opportunity to do it differently.

00:46:39: And I am going agree with you on that, so economics has been picked up a lot in universities.

00:46:45: It's sometimes in business schools because they have their feet in the ground They need water, they employ people Right?

00:46:54: They're hit by energy crisis.

00:46:55: They are real material climate changing world.

00:46:59: So its relevant.

00:47:01: But it's picked up in urban studies.

00:47:03: It's picked a lot of architecture, uh...in health and civil engineering.

00:47:07: I know young people who've gone off to university sent me photographs from their courses all around the world totally different disciplines.

00:47:13: oh we're being taught at The Donut!

00:47:16: Its less than anything else.

00:47:18: i don't pick up in mainstream economics department because its just very different paradigm.

00:47:23: this is one thing that makes me mad about mainstream economics which often fails.

00:47:27: make students aware that there are many schools of thought.

00:47:31: I think it's a right for an economic student to know, There's feminist economics, there is complexity economics.

00:47:47: There are behavioural economics and institutional economics.

00:47:50: Now we're going to respect you so much young people that were gonna show something of all these ways of thinking And leave it up your own critical faculties To decide which one do think most useful for analysing a particular aspect in the world.

00:48:03: The things I love about this website called Exploring Economics network economy in Germany, so it's a kind of very related to rethink economics and they set up this website.

00:48:14: You go on it And It just has a little box for each Of the kinds of schools have thought I just mentioned and it gives you A one line and at One paragraph an In-depth that goes as in depth As you want with Each of these schools are thought.

00:48:26: i think every Economics professor should stand On The first day of the term and At First of their lectures.

00:48:30: With This whole array of all the Schools Are Thoughts on the board?

00:48:38: I'm speaking about neoclassical economics and behavioral economics, or i'm here as an ecological economist in a feminist economist so that we can start to see that.

00:48:47: We're being taught from a spectrum of worldviews and any textbook that's called economics is either hiding the fact for me that it kind of neoclasical economics didn't need to say because its so predominant.

00:48:59: who needs to name it?

00:49:00: all its practitioners its economists are just unaware.

00:49:04: there's such an array of ways of thinking that they have a very particular worldview.

00:49:08: That their coming from somewhere, I remember when my book came out in the Netherlands.

00:49:13: some Dutch journalist wanted me and conversation with mainstream economist And i put the doughnut on table.

00:49:18: this economy said ah but you see it come all these human needs environmental values.

00:49:23: now your objectivity is gone political And I said, wow.

00:49:30: Do you not even realize that all of your theories sitting inside every model from rational economic man to the absence of the living world?

00:49:37: To taking initial income distribution as given.

00:49:39: do you not realise there are values packed into everything you're doing now?

00:49:43: i'm afraid of You because at least making my values really explicit and we can have a conversation about it.

00:49:49: But Your Values Are So Packed Inside The Theories.

00:49:51: They Look Objective Because It All Turns Into An Equation That You'Re Not Even able to discuss the values you're speaking from because they are hidden and that is disturbing.

00:50:05: Yes, and positive economics invented by our friend Milton Friedman I learned recently as well.

00:50:12: so there's a yes... I want be careful about your time.

00:50:18: this was really wonderful And I think we've gone further than expected.

00:50:22: So, do...I did want to just wrap up by asking what you're working on now and you mentioned before that you said you wish he had turned this into theatre but you are actually doing theater?

00:50:32: And i don't know very much about it and i'd really be interested!

00:50:35: It's at the Donut Circus.

00:50:36: so can tell us a little bit of what your'e doing?

00:50:38: You're right, and you just connected those two things.

00:50:40: So when my book first came out I wanted to do some very playful presentations And i even sat down with a set designer.

00:50:46: one day in the cafe We started drawing what if we brought rational economic man on stage?

00:50:50: How could show regenerative design?

00:50:54: Then it literally closed that little book and put aside On my bookshelves because I started getting drawn-in by practitioners Realising they need an organisation!

00:51:04: I found this notebook only recently.

00:51:08: I really started on this line.

00:51:10: It's come back in a different form, one of the things that love doing is presentations at book festivals and sorry festival summer festivals in UK they often have a tent to big ideas or book festivals.

00:51:20: so i was giving talk at a festival couple years ago when it by said the talks half an hour its called we need to talk about growth ,I won't use any slides are being you know in a festival site.

00:51:31: just use some objects.

00:51:33: And I went to check out the site, The Night Before of where i'd be speaking and it was a circus tent.

00:51:38: Everybody's sitting around in circles on bae-on hay bales and street bunting hanging from there...and I thought my god!

00:51:45: I'm in a circus then?I have to deserve this

00:51:48: space?!

00:51:48: I have to be as playful as the space.

00:51:50: so I was much more playful and interactive with the audience and I called someone up onto the stage talking about growth..And at the end of it lots people just came up to me said that was great.

00:52:00: even my six-year old, she didn't understand everything you said.

00:52:03: but you totally had her attention and I realized i had a lot of fun and people were laughing.

00:52:08: And I was laughing.

00:52:10: so I

00:52:10: thought what was that?

00:52:12: Then in role to go on the clowning course...I went into some improv classes..and then the next festival I did....I really took along a lot objects and learned if you invite someone up on stage or come play growth finance and the loan sharks, if you give them a hat they feel masked.

00:52:34: And they feel freer to be a character If You Give Them An Object Like A Bag like The Chancellor's Red Tax Box saying tax on it or a shark for a loan shark Or a noodle.

00:52:45: we could swimming noodles so We Can Make Some Graphs With Swimming Noodles?

00:52:48: If You give Them an object They Feel Safe To Play.

00:52:52: And I've been blown away, so now do circuses.

00:52:54: One call we need to talk about growth.

00:52:55: my current circus is called battle for the burst in nature versus finance.

00:52:59: The next circus it's going to be called how riches too much.

00:53:01: So bringing together some of the big issues of the day into the Big Top In a very playful way.

00:53:06: here's why i love It.

00:53:07: one.

00:53:07: people come as their whole selves and they come playfully and they step Into space that clearly like a circus?

00:53:12: We're not there in suits.

00:53:13: We're Not there in our name.

00:53:15: badges were not in a corporate or academic atmosphere.

00:53:19: and there's something very powerful about humour, it means we can talk about really big deep challenging political power issues in a playful way with a laugh.

00:53:29: We could talk about it now!

00:53:30: We often can't actually talk about when we talk straight so humour makes taboo things permissible.

00:53:36: but the thing I really love is the extraordinary willingness of people who at one moment think i'm the audience and watching this... And before they know that does anybody ever want to be a clown?

00:53:49: Suddenly, their hand is up and they're on the stage.

00:53:51: And there being Bobo The Clown... I put a hat and red nose on them!

00:53:54: They are blowing a bubble to symbolise the biosphere.

00:53:57: The hilarity?

00:53:58: The

00:53:59: wit?!

00:53:59: The playfulness that on-the-spot responses i get from people.

00:54:03: Somebody comes in playing nature somebody plays finance.

00:54:06: We bring out emotions of finance at this stage.

00:54:09: These folks didn't know it.

00:54:10: People often say to me after, no but surely they all knew you planted them and that guy who came in did juggling and the person who come and did that incredibly bendy act?

00:54:18: I was like none of them knew!

00:54:19: And i didn't any of them.

00:54:21: so It's revealed for me incredible creativity playfulness courage Of humans...and at end of The Circus we just created a circus together from scratch.

00:54:34: So We had ALL THE SKILLS ALREADY HERE IN THE TENT.

00:54:38: So what else can we do?

00:54:40: And I'm going to go back to that statistic you mentioned earlier, right.

00:54:42: Many of us want a different kind of economy and business but believe only half the number people who actually wanted it are ready as well.

00:54:51: We massively underestimate ourselves in everybody around us.

00:54:55: so Circus shows us we're ready for something way more creative, playful fun and memorable.

00:55:02: That's why i am loving doing circus.

00:55:05: That sounds wonderful.

00:55:06: I know some clowns, i am really inspired to do something like that where I'm...I'll follow up with you on that.

00:55:12: Great Thank You Kate.

00:55:15: Final question Do you have any feedback for us?

00:55:19: And what we're

00:55:21: trying to do with this project?

00:55:23: What are you trying?

00:55:23: We're trying to reclaim economics.

00:55:26: Our title is Invisible Handcuffs, we are trying make seen the handcuffs that capture our imagination preventing us from getting past those statistics you mentioned.

00:55:37: so as many people talk about it and help show both where economics go wrong but also what can do get out of these handcuffs.

00:55:50: So having named invisible handcuffs, of course your task is to make them visible which I think you're doing.

00:55:55: One part of making that visible is making visible the mindset we are inculcated into and caught in.

00:56:01: but i think other parts of those hand coughs is incentives and institutional structures so more help makes it visible are ranked on the starting salary of their graduates.

00:56:15: So guess what they're going to be trained to do?

00:56:18: They'll go into today's high profit businesses, so that incentive system trickles right down whether or not the doughnut will come in your lecture and once I think we become aware.

00:56:32: Yeah, I think it mobilizes students.

00:56:34: It mobilized all of us.

00:56:35: so this is insane!

00:56:36: i'll give you another example.

00:56:37: people often say with kind of paradigm change oh we will change paradigm one funeral at a time.

00:56:42: not-so sure.

00:56:44: actually.

00:56:44: some of the older professors they wonder were long tenured are freest to pursue what they believe and there can be more radical ones.

00:56:54: when my book came out in Belgium economists, we had a really good conversation and over coffee away from everybody else.

00:57:11: A young lecturer came up to me.

00:57:13: he was an associate professor who's about in his mid-thirties.

00:57:17: I love the ideas of don't economics.

00:57:21: i would love to be teaching them to my students but on track.

00:57:25: so yeah have to be cautious.

00:57:28: wow that is one thing This professor gets the ideas, there's nothing between him and the mindset that I'm talking about.

00:57:37: He wants to teach it in his classroom –I believe those students would love it– but he is on track to get tenure.

00:57:43: so now needs approval of all these professors who need to publish them into those journals again locked up by an old incentive system which stops him from.

00:57:54: So his need for his personal advancement in his career as an academic economist, a research economist is blocking him from teaching what this current generation of country university to learn and what will equip them with the future that they face.

00:58:09: The more you can make the incentives and institutional design visible at those invisible handcuffs I think it makes us so frustrated we were break free and demand that these institutions be changed or we realign around other institutions, walk away from the departments that are stuck in these old ways.

00:58:26: And coalesce around different kinds of degrees and different kinds Of thinking is already alive and bubbling there.

00:58:32: so I think if you can make That visible You will help us burst out These invisible handcuffs.

00:58:39: Thankyou Kate.

00:58:40: We'll do our best.

00:58:42: thank you So much once again for everything your doing For talking with this today.

00:58:47: Please keep going.

00:58:48: My pleasure and you guys, You Keep Going!

00:58:50: Here's to this podcast Katie I'm a massive fan of the three part podcasts that you put together on The Limits To Growth.

00:58:58: That just blew me away listening to them.

00:59:01: So i am so thrilled that your now podcasting in conversation with people not using found archive tape from from the nineteen seventies but people are alive today and you're able to be in conversation with all of us.

00:59:14: And bring that story, your storytelling techniques are fabulous so I can't wait.

00:59:19: see what you make with it!

00:59:21: Thank You very much Kate My

00:59:23: pleasure

00:59:23: thank you thanks bye-bye Bye-bye.

00:59:36: If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider liking and following us on YouTube or your favourite podcasting platform.

00:59:41: And by subscribing to our website at TheVisibleHandcuffs.com where you can also find the show notes for more about the project.

00:59:49: with that Thank You For Listening.